Luis Enrique

mssarm

Member
If Lucho's lasting legacy on this club is a top heavy style, reliant on players producing individual brilliance, especially with La Masia drying up rapidly, it's going to force us to just buy more players and further push the club toward the commercial path.
It's a long post indeed, however from my point of view the ideas were heavily influenced by emotions and nostalgia rather than pragmatic analyses. I just want address one of the points regarding Lucho pushing the club to Galactico status and Pep being the La Masia promoter.Let's not forget the core of the LaMasia graduates in Pep's team were not promoted by Pep, he inherited them. Pep himself bought lots of non Masia players.Somehow buying Suarez is Galactico move , but buying Ibra wasn't? We need to understand that Barca more so under Pep became this mega corporation with huge appetite for spotlight, influence and commercial success.Barca fans worldwide want to see players who can score goals, dribble and win titles. Do you think it is possible now to give up the chase for silverware in sake of development La Masia graduates? The bar of expectation is sky high now and it is very different from Rijkaard's time. I don't believe there's a way back regardless who is the coach. La Masia graduates will face the fierce competition from outside players and only the strongest will survive. Times are changing and the rules are changing too. Lucho is doing what is right for his time, just like Rijkaard and Pep.
 
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i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
It's a long post indeed, however from my point of view the ideas were heavily influenced by emotions and nostalgia rather than pragmatic analyses. I just want address one of the points regarding Lucho pushing the club to Galactico status and Pep being the La Masia promoter.Let's not forget the core of the LaMasia graduates in Pep's team were not promoted by Pep, he inherited them. Pep himself bought lots of non Masia players.Somehow buying Suarez is Galactico move , but buying Ibra wasn't? We need to understand that Barca more so under Pep became this mega corporation with huge appetite for spotlight, influence and commercial success.Barca fans worldwide want to see players who can score goals, dribble and win titles. Do you think it is possible now to give up the chase for silverware in sake of development La Masia graduates? The bar of expectation is sky high now and it is very different from Rijkaard's time. I don't believe there's a way back regardless who is the coach. La Masia graduates will face the fierce competition from outside players and only the strongest will survive. Times are changing and the rules are changing too. Lucho is doing what is right for his time, just like Rijkaard and Pep.


Yo man, I'm not saying Lucho is intentionally turning us into Real, not at all. I'm just saying his template isn't sustainable, it's not a model we should pursue long term as a template for success. Lucho has bought a lot of players in his time so far, and while I'm not saying we should be Athletic Bilbao, putting emphasis on promoting our youth players for first team football, whether they turn into Messi or Tello, is much more sustainable, both sporting and financially. My point is, while Lucho himself has made good moves in the transfer market, moves that we've needed to make for over 3 seasons now, if we follow this template season after season while letting La Masia wither, it could push the club toward a commercial path like Real. It's not this season that I'm worried about, it's 2,3,4 seasons from now that could be where you really start to see what I'm talking about and for me, it's more Bartomeu whom I think is pushing us towards that path, while Lucho is giving free reign to buy and manage as he sees fit.

If future managers behave and get a free leash like Lucho and we continue to ignore La Masia, the basis of what made this club great will crumble.

And you're right, Rijkaard definitely helped set the table for Pep. The talent that we had at the youth level while he was managing was very rare and he definitely primed the fuel for Pep's engine.

So while Pep alone wasn't the La Masia promoter, he had a system that made the transition easier and more familiar for the players to flourish. Yeah, Pep didn't unearth Messi. But Messi would blindly run to the corner and try and beat three guys when it wasn't on before Pep came along. Pep's system highlighted the strengths of his, Xavi's and Iniesta's and he taught Messi how to see the game the way he looks at it today.

So yes, Pep didn't promote Xavi, Messi, Puyol and Iniesta but he did promote Pedro, Thiago, Busquets and in a lot of ways, Piqué as well give ample opportunity for players like Bojan, Muniesa, Cuenca and Tello.

I hope Lucho will do the same but it's true the talent isn't of the calibre of when Rijkaard and Pep were here. However, playing players out of position isnt going to help them integrate nor judge whether or not they are at the level required.

The season hasn't started yet and it seems like Vidal and Arda will be all for now, which gives a big opportunity to a lot of the young players, particularly Rafinha, Roberto, Sandro and Munir. They have until January to prove themselves. If they flop and don't play to the required level, of course we should go to the market. But I'm going to be pissed for them if they (and I think Rafinha and Sandro might do this) have promising showings just for the club to sign big name players who sell jerseys to replace them.
 

silvia

New member
seriously, why comparing?
every directors has bright side and dark side.
Pep's possession system used la masia players, Enrique's style focus more on MSN and direct attack.
i cherish Cruyff and don't like today's la masia policy, but so what?
Pep did sextuple and Lucho did treble, admit both are great. Endless discussion over and over.
 

mssarm

Member
I'm just saying his template isn't sustainable, it's not a model we should pursue long term as a template for success.
Again- I don't agree. The club revenues are going up every year and guys like Messi, Neymar and Suarez bring insane cash flow for the club. If you think it's not sustainable- think again: commercialized clubs are doing much better financially each year but clubs that find and develop true talents are struggling financially and eventually sell their star players-Porto, Atletico, Dortmund are perfect example. At the same time RM and Barca spend more each year, increase their revenues and push other clubs out of competition. Ask 100 Barca fans if they want to see Pogba playing for Barca. At least 80% will favor that and prepare the cash to buy the T-shirts with his name. How many of them will be concerned that Pogba will push out Masia graduates? As club you can't ignore the preferences of your fan base, because they are the ones who pay the bills. Those are the rules of today's game and if you don't play by the rules you are out. Of course Barca has traditions, La Masia and all of that. Pep promoted young players, Lucho promoting them too. But how many of those players got sold even when Pep was still in charge. I'm sure under Lucho will be the same, therefore comparing Pep and Lucho is pointless. If Lucho is doing something different it's just because the times have changed and whatever was working for Pep is becoming obsolete under Lucho.I'm talking about game tactics, squad management, coach/player communications style, everything... The times they are a-Changing
P.S. Don't think I favor Galactico-s. I don't , but I'm realist and I know there are not much for alternatives. Also, I'm a Barca fan for long time and probably I will remain Barca fan even if they become glory hunters like RM.
 
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silvia

New member
Again- I don't agree. The club revenues are going up every year and guys like Messi, Neymar and Suarez bring insane cash flow for the club. If you think it's not sustainable- think again: commercialized clubs are doing much better financially each year but clubs that find and develop true talents are struggling financially and eventually sell their star players-Porto, Atletico, Dortmund are perfect example. At the same time RM and Barca spend more each year, increase their revenues and push other clubs out of competition. Ask 100 Barca fans if they want to see Pogba playing for Barca. At least 80% will favor that and prepare the cash to buy the T-shirts with his name. How many of them will be concerned that Pogba will push out Masia graduates? As club you can't ignore the preferences of your fan base, because they are the ones who pay the bills. Those are the rules of today's game and if you don't play by the rules you are out. Of course Barca has traditions, La Masia and all of that. Pep promoted young players, Lucho promoting them too. But how many of those players got sold even when Pep was still in charge. I'm sure under Lucho will be the same, therefore comparing Pep and Lucho is pointless. If Lucho is doing something different it's just because the times have changed and whatever was working for Pep is becoming obsolete under Lucho.I'm talking about game tactics, squad management, coach/player communications style, everything... The times they are a-Changing
P.S. Don't think I favor Galactico-s. I don't , but I'm realist and I know there are not much for alternatives. Also, I'm a Barca fan for long time and probably I will remain Barca fan even if they become glory hunters like RM.

Firstly, 80 of barca fan doesn't care la masia is not true, even if they pros Pogba. Every football fan cares their youths. There are light fans, but they are them, they don't buy shirts.
Secondly, RM's account balance is the worst of all because of galactico. Promoting youths is good for money if it succeeds.How much money did barca spend on la masia stars? none. but it needs a patience.
Atletico is not good example. Koke and all those success made the club preferable and players tend to stay now, if the player doesn't follow money. There is Arda, but he is not atletico youth so it doesnt apply.
I would support barca only if it continues its color and attractiveness. I will remain even it didn't win any trophies, but i can't if it loses its philosophy and corrupt like RM.
I am not saying to give every chance to lamasia players, but talking about priorities. Give them enough chances before sigining expensive players.
 

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
As club you can't ignore the preferences of your fan base, because they are the ones who pay the bills. Those are the rules of today's game and if you don't play by the rules you are out. Of course Barca has traditions, La Masia and all of that.

Real Madrid, are first and foremost, a club that received overwhelmingly preferential treatment from Spanish banks that give them a huge financial advantage over all other European clubs. While we do receive favorable treatment as well, Real get insane perks on loans they get through deferred payments and insanely low interest rates that allows their annual reports to indicate insane revenue gains because of their positive net assets. The only club who comes close to Madrid financially is United, and they do so in much tougher conditions.

And see, what I guess what people didn't/don't realize is that this club was a great example of how to function outside pure commercialization. Especially at the turn of the millennia, a vast majority of major European clubs had gone the commercial route and we didn't. It was our mark of distinction, it's the essence of més que un club and this core conceptual difference is what has made us this dominant recently. Since 2004, no club can come close to our domestic and European success and it was founded on keeping the sporting aspect of a football club the central modus operandi of how it functions.

Everything. La Masia, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Pep, Rijkaard, Cryuff, Tito, Puyol, our style of football, stems from this distinction. Being able to grow a competitive European team on your own allows you not to have to commercialize every aspect of your club just to balance the books, books that aren't nearly as bad as the media makes out. It allows you to instill values, a philosophy and continuity in your players and style, a style that is continually evolving and perfected. This is why we have been so successful and produced all of those names (outside of Cruyff and Rijkaard, from the OGs...) and all of this success.

Rosell and Bartomeu have been ripping this out from the club since they have gotten in and for the life of me I don't know why. Our dominance shows why this works and it is other clubs who should be emulating us, not the other way around. This is why Pep's treble, and in particular the 2010-11 double where only Abidal, Alves, Mascherano and Villa were the only imported players playing for is in the CL final was so complete, it represented why, despite all the money everyone else was making, we were the ones doing it the right way.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Our dominance shows why this works and it is other clubs who should be emulating us, not the other way around.

Our dominance showed only that it works when you have players like prime Messi, prime Xavi, prime Iniesta, Puyol, and other several World Champions like Busquets, Villa, Pedro and others. To stick with an idea while not having the talent required to make that idea work is the quickest way to end up like Arsenal. That's not being different, that's being stupid. Anyone who thinks the club should not do everything it can to remain the best in the world is wrong IMO.
 
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F

Flavia

Guest
I think we've been spoiled by watching players like Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, and especially Messi, coming from la masia. I doubt the club will be able to replicate that.
Players will hopefully keep coming from the cantera, but it won't be in those numbers, or all with that quality.

What needs to stop happening, imo, is signing of players like Douglas, Song, and giving time to the players with quality.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I think we've been spoiled by watching players like Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, and especially Messi, coming from la masia. I doubt the club will be able to replicate that.
Players will hopefully keep coming from the cantera, but it won't be in those numbers, or all with that quality.

What needs to stop happening, imo, is signing of players like Douglas, Song, and giving time to the players with quality.

Completely agree. We must buy what we can't provide with our cantera at this moment, players of superior quality like Neymar, Arda, Rakitic, Suarez etc.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
If future managers behave and get a free leash like Lucho and we continue to ignore La Masia, THE BASIS of what made this club great will crumble.

And you're right, Rijkaard definitely helped set the table for Pep. The talent that we had at the youth level while he was managing was very rare and he definitely primed the fuel for Pep's engine.

Hmm, when you say the basis of what made this club great?
In the last 20-ish years, how much I have been following Barca, we had 4 great managers who won a lot of trophies.
1. Van Gaal
2. Rijkaard
3. Pep
4. Lucho

-- Van Gaal won trophies with 100s of Dutch players+some Brasilian world class players+some Spanish players
-- Rijkaard won trophies with foreign players, in his era we turned away from Dutch players who didn't brought as many success as expected=to more and more Brasilian players in Barca (Ronnie, Deco, Motta, Edmilson, Belletti, Sylvinho). That trend continued after him.
-- Pep won trophies with golden La Masia generation+Messi
-- Lucho won trophies with bought players, old La Masia players+Messi

I wanted to say, when you say that La Masia is a core or basis of Barca, it is not.
It was only in Pep's era and too many people probably think that this is how Barca worked since always, but again, it didn't, and Pep's generation was the best generation ever.

I am not Catalan, I don't care that much (political reasons) if our players are Catalan or foreigners and I don't care at all whether we play a CL final with 11 La Masia products or with 11 galacticos. (Ok, I would rather see some La Masia players, but you get the point.)

But, from my point of view, if 3 out 4 of our best coaches from the last 20 years didn't rely too much on La Masia players, then how exactly is this what Lucho is doing=different or bad?
This is a normal thing in the recent Barca's history.
In fact, what Pep did (relied on a lot of domestic players) was actually a very strange/rare move, considering our history.
 
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Barcilliant

Senior Member
The football played under Pep was the best I've even seen. EVER. And I've been watching football since 1977.

That 5-0 against RM was unbelievable. They way we were pinging the ball around-it was like hockey players passing the puck. We dominated some very good teams who had no answer to us. I mean teams knew exactly how we would play but still couldn't stop us. As mentioned by others though we were very predicatble. Pep always wanted perfection and that meant he wanted us dominating possession.

I personally prefer Rijkaard's and Lucho's Barca. We can play the possession game but break at speed too. Also I like the fact that Lucho like Rijkaard recognises the fact that you need some strength and height in the modern game. Pep inherited a balanced squad and when he left we had mainly a bunch of midgets.
Lucho understands the need for pragmatism in todays game and I like that.

We still need 2 players though. A PROPER cb and a reserve striker. Would like to see that.
 

ppxrare

New member
The football played under Pep was the best I've even seen. EVER. And I've been watching football since 1977.

That 5-0 against RM was unbelievable. They way we were pinging the ball around-it was like hockey players passing the puck. We dominated some very good teams who had no answer to us. I mean teams knew exactly how we would play but still couldn't stop us. As mentioned by others though we were very predicatble. Pep always wanted perfection and that meant he wanted us dominating possession.

I personally prefer Rijkaard's and Lucho's Barca. We can play the possession game but break at speed too. Also I like the fact that Lucho like Rijkaard recognises the fact that you need some strength and height in the modern game. Pep inherited a balanced squad and when he left we had mainly a bunch of midgets.
Lucho understands the need for pragmatism in todays game and I like that.

We still need 2 players though. A PROPER cb and a reserve striker. Would like to see that.

That Madrid team was no where close to the strength of Madrid the past 2 years. Madrid at that period if you remember couldn't even get past round of 16 in UCL and would get knocked out by Lyon constantly. Also it was the first year for Mourinho with a lot of new squad players who weren't exactly gelling yet. It's the same as when we dominated Bayern in 2008/09 we were basically playing against a shit team. Teams these days are much better than they were during the 08/09 season and the 10/11. You wouldn't even think of Atletico Madrid, Dortmund etc.. as threats back then.
 

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
The football played under Pep was the best I've even seen. EVER. And I've been watching football since 1977.

That 5-0 against RM was unbelievable.-

And further during that season we were barely able to beat them during that April month when we faced them 4 times. It should be taken into account that it was Mourinho's first season and we didn't see that kind of annihilation thereafter, they always put a good fight vs us.
 

silvia

New member
I think we've been spoiled by watching players like Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, and especially Messi, coming from la masia. I doubt the club will be able to replicate that.
Players will hopefully keep coming from the cantera, but it won't be in those numbers, or all with that quality.

What needs to stop happening, imo, is signing of players like Douglas, Song, and giving time to the players with quality.

Do you really think barca can replicate sextuple without quality youth players? or at least treble? i think some are spoiled watching Neymar and Suarez, with your logic.
 

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