Luis Enrique

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Do you really think barca can replicate sextuple without quality youth players? or at least treble? i think some are spoiled watching Neymar and Suarez, with your logic.

I think that we can win trebles and CLs+La Liga more or less with 0 players from La masia (if that was your question).
Again, as I said in another post a few days ago, only in Pep's era we relied on La masia and La masia was a core of our success.
During Van Gaal, Rijkaard and Lucho, the core of our success was money and expensive Dutch, Brasilian and Argentine players (and some Spanish players from La liga teams).

So, if the question was about La Masia, Barca won't die even if all La Masia's products will be like Deulo and Adama.
If you thought about younger players in general, we can always buy a mixture of older and younger talent and be successful again.

On the other hand, if we can produce new Xavi+Iniesta+Puyol soon, even better.
But again, Barca won't die without La Masia talents.
We lived without them more or less, our whole history until 2008-2009.
 
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Flavia

Guest
Do you really think barca can replicate sextuple without quality youth players? or at least treble? i think some are spoiled watching Neymar and Suarez, with your logic.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was talking about la masia only, never mentioned trophies, or non masia players.
 

raskolnikov

Well-known member
And further during that season we were barely able to beat them during that April month when we faced them 4 times. It should be taken into account that it was Mourinho's first season and we didn't see that kind of annihilation thereafter, they always put a good fight vs us.
Mourinho never had a beating like that ever before and it served him right after the inter game and hype of it being a 50/50 match where arrogant Mourinho now would end Barca in la liga as well.
That game was perfection, after that since he is a good trainer he adapted and made them extremely aggresive. all troughout 2011 these classico's were a war with little action going on the pitch. Its not strange how we didnt get to 5-0 again when the game was stopped constantly due to fouls. We were clearly stronger than them though in that period. That cl game where we won 0-2 did really hurt him a lot as well, since he was thinking on kicking us out after the copa game, owning us in the cl 2 years in a row and taking la liga from us as well. Then some Messi magic killed them off.

It wasnt until 2012 in that 1-2 game at camp nou where we had to win due to trailing them (thanks refs!) where things started to change and Madrid got the upperhand in the classico's. allthough they were getting better in 2011 during the second half.
Allthough I do kind of blame Pep for going full retard playing 3-4-3 in el classico with guys like Tello and Cuenca trying to fit in Cesc as well.
 

silvia

New member
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was talking about la masia only, never mentioned trophies, or non masia players.

C'mon! you know what im talking.
It is pointless if you are not talking about winning. So, you don't care about result and call them spoiled because barca are not supposed to use la masia?
Barca can use all expensive non masia players and doesn't care about result?
 
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Flavia

Guest
C'mon! you know what im talking.
It is pointless if you are not talking about winning. So, you don't care about result and call them spoiled because barca are not supposed to use la masia?
Barca can use all expensive non masia players and doesn't care about result?

You clearly didn't understand one word I said. I meant players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Puyol, Pique, won't be coming out of la masia regularly. And that's what made many people spoiled, thinking players like them will be coming thru the ranks on a regular basis. Hope you can understand it now. You're talking about something else entirely.
 

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
The whole purpose of my emphasis on Lucho's overall approach and Pep's overall approach focused more on how it influenced the emphasis the club placed in how the club managed the squad.

There's a clear dicotomy in how a club manages it's squad: on one side of the spectrum you have clubs like City and PSG whose squads are completely comprised of purchased players. If you have the commercial revenue or an oil sheik to back the model, no problem. However, your reliant on favorable economic conditions and if there is a drop in revenue or if the conditions change, there is bound to be a drop in a quality, and your forced to sell off valuable assets. This is why the financial crisis in 2008 and the subsequent rounds afterword changed the playing field substantially. The Premier League and Serie A's decline in Europe are good examples of the outcome of the dangers of being overly commercial.

On the flip side of the spectrum, you have clubs like Ajax, Bilbao and Dinamo Zagreb who rely either heavily or exclusively on homegrown players. Like many have pointed out in response to my posts on this, this can be vulnerable to poaching from other clubs and a lack of competition if the quality of the raised players aren't of the standard required.

I'm not nor do I feel that I've insinuated in the past that a club with the commercial power that Barça possesses completely rule out signing players in the market. Overall however, my overarching theme is highlighting the merits of leaning more towards the development side of the spectrum rather than the commercial.

To put it quantitatively, I'd put our current point at roughly 65-35 in favor of the commercial. For the most part since our golden generation is fading, we our responding by buying a majority of the squad and filling in the holes with academy prospects. Granted, we have players like Rakitic, Suarez and Neymar who have had excellent transitions into the team, and in the past players like Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Van Bommel, Rivaldo, Deco etc. have taken like a fish to water with our style. However, this is probably the most difficult club to adjust to tactically and stylistically (Madrid are the most difficult club to come to period but for different and much more frivolous reasons). Cesc, Ibrahimovic, Song, Alexis there are plenty of examples of world class players who stuck out like sore thumbs in comparison with the other players. Meanwhile, homegrown transfers like Alba and Piqué have a smooth transition. Not to mention the transition phase every player who transfers here has to go through, at other clubs you can more so just do what you did before and it works out fine. Not here. Ask Neymar.

So there is higher risk in signing players from the market here. This is why I say Pep's model is more sustainable than Lucho's. It's easier to grow players who can execute a familiar system than buy players who fit the system.

Let me emphasize this clearly. Ideally, I think Barça's lasting template should be around 65-35 in favor of the academy and development. I'm not saying we go full 100:0, clearly in the past when there were players we needed that La Masia wasn't producing, we purchased them. Not saying that's the devils work. But for me, we should only buy what La Masia isn't producing and especially if we buy, we should try buy first young players who fit the technical bill first and foremost and if it still isn't there, splash cash for a star.

Rijkaard understood this balance really well because despite having Deco, Giuly, Larson and Eto'o, he regularly gave time to Xavi, Iniesta and Messi. I'm not naive enough to think that we will always have players like this and other clubs produce players of mental and technical quality to fit at this club. But why invest all of this time and money around a youth academy and going so far as to instill a discernible style of play to facilitate this growth if your not going to use it?

We have pissed away quality players like Thiago because we gave their time to players like Alex Song, players that we need now or will need in the future. The fact that Samper has yet to play with the first team recently while Mascherano struggles to cover for Busi is just maddening to me. I'm all for making smart, shrewd signings if the quality isn't there. If we bought players like Danilo, Oliver Torres, Memphis Depay, Youri Tielemans, Paulo Dybala, when La Masia couldn't produce a match to this quality, I'd have no issue. But to buy a player when you have a player in the academy of equal or better quality is absurd to me and we've done these sort of facepalm transfers since Pep has left.

In sum, La Masia players should be given a fair chance to show if they can compete and the club is foolish to forgo a model that can provide this much success. Not saying follow it to a tee, you always have to be adaptable and tuning is always needed but I just believe keeping a basis of more homegrown players than exported players can bring us succeess financially and sportingly in the long run. There isn't a pressing need to commercialize and while I don't expect us to be able to field a La Masia 11 year in and year out, keeping at least 5 or 6 in the squad can help keep the clubs identity and investment intact.
 

mssarm

Member
The whole purpose of my emphasis on Lucho's overall approach and Pep's overall approach focused more on how it influenced the emphasis the club placed in how the club managed the squad.

There's a clear dicotomy in how a club manages it's squad: on one side of the spectrum you have clubs like City and PSG whose squads are completely comprised of purchased players. If you have the commercial revenue or an oil sheik to back the model, no problem. However, your reliant on favorable economic conditions and if there is a drop in revenue or if the conditions change, there is bound to be a drop in a quality, and your forced to sell off valuable assets. This is why the financial crisis in 2008 and the subsequent rounds afterword changed the playing field substantially. The Premier League and Serie A's decline in Europe are good examples of the outcome of the dangers of being overly commercial.

On the flip side of the spectrum, you have clubs like Ajax, Bilbao and Dinamo Zagreb who rely either heavily or exclusively on homegrown players. Like many have pointed out in response to my posts on this, this can be vulnerable to poaching from other clubs and a lack of competition if the quality of the raised players aren't of the standard required.

I'm not nor do I feel that I've insinuated in the past that a club with the commercial power that Barça possesses completely rule out signing players in the market. Overall however, my overarching theme is highlighting the merits of leaning more towards the development side of the spectrum rather than the commercial.

To put it quantitatively, I'd put our current point at roughly 65-35 in favor of the commercial. For the most part since our golden generation is fading, we our responding by buying a majority of the squad and filling in the holes with academy prospects. Granted, we have players like Rakitic, Suarez and Neymar who have had excellent transitions into the team, and in the past players like Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Van Bommel, Rivaldo, Deco etc. have taken like a fish to water with our style. However, this is probably the most difficult club to adjust to tactically and stylistically (Madrid are the most difficult club to come to period but for different and much more frivolous reasons). Cesc, Ibrahimovic, Song, Alexis there are plenty of examples of world class players who stuck out like sore thumbs in comparison with the other players. Meanwhile, homegrown transfers like Alba and Piqué have a smooth transition. Not to mention the transition phase every player who transfers here has to go through, at other clubs you can more so just do what you did before and it works out fine. Not here. Ask Neymar.

So there is higher risk in signing players from the market here. This is why I say Pep's model is more sustainable than Lucho's. It's easier to grow players who can execute a familiar system than buy players who fit the system.

Let me emphasize this clearly. Ideally, I think Barça's lasting template should be around 65-35 in favor of the academy and development.
You have a long post again and I have my disagreement. I don't think you understand the finance side of the club: Barca is not City, not Chelsea nor PSG. No one can afford to buy Barca. Barca might go public to attract additional capital, but oil money? No way unless we stop buying world club players and turn into Arsenal. That is actually will create a problem with our sustainability.
Next: I would like to know how did you came up with with that 65-35 ratio calculation? Is it just a number that you personally prefer or you have some science behind it.
Cesc, Ibrahimovic, Song, Alexis (Cesc????) stuck out like sore thumb? For each unsuccessful non-Masia players I can give you 3 failures from La Masia. And how come you credit Pique for integrating easily by being La Masia product and Cesc who was also La Masia "was sticking out as sore thumb".
 
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i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
You have a long post again and I have my disagreement. I don't think you understand the finance side of the club: Barca is not City, not Chelsea nor PSG. No one can afford to buy Barca. Barca might go public to attract additional capital, but oil money? No way unless we stop buying world club players and turn into Arsenal. That is actually will create a problem with our sustainability.
Next: I would like to know how did you came up with with that 65-35 ratio calculation? Is it just a number that you personally prefer or you have some science behind it.
Cesc, Ibrahimovic, Song, Alexis (Cesc????) stuck out like sore thumb? For each unsuccessful non-Masia players I can give you 3 failures from La Masia. And how come you credit Pique for integrating easily by being La Masia product and Cesc who was also La Masia "was sticking out as sore thumb".

Cesc is an anomoly. The difference with Cesc and Piqué is that Cesc was THE man, Arsenal's Messi, while Piqué was mainly a reserve for United. When Arsenal had more class up front, namely when Cesc first joined, Wenger kept him deep much like how Mourinho uses him now, but when players like Viera, Pires, Henry etc. departed, Wenger centered the team around him and Van Persie and gave them a lot of freedom to just roam and find space.

So that was a key reason why, if you compare Cesc and Piqué, at least to me why their transitions here went so differently. Also, Cesc learned to feed the 9 from Wenger while Pep (and subsequently everyone after him) wanted him to BE the 9, especially when Villa either wasn't present in the squad or after he left. He was literally starting from scratch and learning a new position while sometimes playing in his natural role. Piqué never had to face that sort of shaqe :neymar::pique: up.

So coming from a team where your granted complete freedom to playing with a team in a very nebulous role with 3 or 4 other players occupying the space you like to play in and do what you do, it's no wonder Cesc would look so lost out there at times. Very few players could handle that kind of jump and adjustment.

Not every world class player can excel here, it takes good coaching and a proper tactical nous. Furthermore, of course you can name 3 la masia failures to 1 transfer flops, because that's virtually opportunity cost ratio of buying a transferred player to promoting three academy prospects.

Yes we are structured differently on a corporate level than other clubs, it's a key reason why a lot of the clubs traditions remained intact until recently, our presidents are checked by socis.

Lastly, the ratio of 50:50 would be if the club evenly diverted efforts and resources to commercializing through transfer deals, shirt sales, sponsorship deals etc. and investing in youth coaches, keeping training facilities and techniques state of the art, scouting and recruiting youth players etc.
 

silvia

New member
You clearly didn't understand one word I said. I meant players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Puyol, Pique, won't be coming out of la masia regularly. And that's what made many people spoiled, thinking players like them will be coming thru the ranks on a regular basis. Hope you can understand it now. You're talking about something else entirely.

I know, but how can it be done when they think like that in the first place and system and whole policy became different.
And its not just individual players, there is tactics, philosophy, system, etc.
What if messi get loaned to like Sevilla in his teenage years.

I believe its like 50 percent vs 50 percent in individual gift vs coaching system. Look germany, they sustain every year because of youth system. Club has to invest in youth and strive too. Its not just an one year work.

and i am not insisting on using youths in all position, of course.
 
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Flavia

Guest
I know, but how can it be done when they think like that in the first place and system and whole policy became different.
And its not just individual players, there is tactics, philosophy, system, etc.
What if messi get loaned to like Sevilla in his teenage years.

I believe its like 50 percent vs 50 percent in individual gift vs coaching system. Look germany, they sustain every year because of youth system. Club has to invest in youth and strive too. Its not just an one year work.

and i am not insisting on using youths in all position, of course.

Last time I'm going to say this, I wasn't talking about any of that.
 

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
Squad photo. No Arda and Sandro.

902c9adfjw1evgay6ui98j20sg0g0n3v.jpg
 

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