Luis Enrique

[jamrock]

Those who try to make it seems like luis is doing a simpliar job to pep, can quote all the statistics they want, about games played by masia players and the rest.

But at the end if the day, where are the player playing real minutes in games that really mattered like tello, Cuenca, Thiago, to name a few, who made real contribution in real la Liga and champions league games under pep.

Luis will give players a few minutes here and there, but when it comes to crush time, he will default to is proven players and not trust the youth, there was a good stretch last season that the player everyone points to, Roberto couldn't get a minute, even though the starters were in need for rest. Remains us of Tito and Thiago.

he may give few players a few no use minutes in games of no consequence, but when it really matters he will not call on them. Not only that.

but when a player starts to show real promise and potential, he will merely loan them out for another coach to do the hard work of developing them.

Luis likes proven players, how anyone is trying to denying this, is beyond comprehension to me.

 

[JamDav1982]

Those who try to make it seems like luis is doing a simpliar job to pep, can quote all the statistics they want, about games played by masia players and the rest.

But at the end if the day, where are the player playing real minutes in games that really mattered like tello, Cuenca, Thiago, to name a few, who made real contribution in real la Liga and champions league games under pep.

Luis will give players a few minutes here and there, but when it comes to crush time, he will default to is proven players and not trust the youth, there was a good stretch last season that the player everyone points to, Roberto couldn't get a minute, even though the starters were in need for rest. Remains us of Tito and Thiago.

he may give few players a few no use minutes in games of no consequence, but when it really matters he will not call on them. Not only that.

but when a player starts to show real promise and potential, he will merely loan them out for another coach to do the hard work of developing them.

Luis likes proven players, how anyone is trying to denying this, is beyond comprehension to me.

Tello and Cuenca prove how young players are not always to be relied upon.

Neither were god enough and the big games were lost in season they were given chances.

You dont like statistics as they dont back up your point of view.

Lots of minutes have been given to Barta, Sergi Roberto, Montoya, Munir and Sandro in recent seasons and in important games.

Lucho has taken more players from B team to first team squad than Pep did in first three seasons. That is ignoring those sent on loan.

 

[Flavia]

Neither do i, I didn't mean you particular, I meant general as we're seeing here some people try to bash Pep with absurd facts. For your second statement I do think a bit different, as I explained in Pep thread ( Pedro for e.g )
but that doesn't mean Lucho is a bad manager either, and about giving 'chances' I think the bloody key is here that is not about giving chances at all, it's about developing your players and make them better and this is something unique that most managers aren't capable of. just like Mou or Carlo they're not good at that either but they do bring trophies as Lucho does and that'd be enough for some fans already.

I think Lucho is capable of developing players. He kept Munir for 2 years and just now he decided to sent him out on loan. Managed Roberto very well too. And we have to take into consideration the expectations now. When Pep took over, Barça had finished 4th in la liga. Pep also had prime Xavi and Iniesta, forming the best midfield ever with Busi, and Messi. That allowed for some freedom to test some forwards too.

Lucho inherited a trophyless Barça, where the expectations now are the treble every season. Barça won the domestic double last season, and yet you see people complaining, like that was a bad season. You can't have that overload and still expect the coach to focus on developing players too much. One side would need to give, and surely it wouldn't be the side about winning trophies. Can't have it all, and I think Lucho is even managing to balance everything well, considering.

 

[jamrock]

No one is complaining about what loco has won, his track record of success as it relates to cups is beyond repute.

All some are saying is that he doesn't take enough interest in developing young players, he would rather loan them out.

But some are coming up with one million and one statistics, to dispute this simple truth.

Loco likes experience player's, this isn't inherently a bad thing, but when you coach a team like Barcelona, one expects a bit more.

Tito given more Chance would perhaps have given going players more opportunities, but in his first team, he just wanted to win something and ended up running his players into the ground and losing Thiago.

But loco after winning the treble in his first year,has Job security, so if I wanted to take a few players under his wings and develop them, he could done so.

Tello and Cuenca prove how young players are not always to be relied upon.

Neither were god enough and the big games were lost in season they were given chances.

You dont like statistics as they dont back up your point of view.

Lots of minutes have been given to Barta, Sergi Roberto, Montoya, Munir and Sandro in recent seasons and in important games.

Lucho has taken more players from B team to first team squad than Pep did in first three seasons. That is ignoring those sent on loan.

See just goes to show, some people want to win a treble every season.

He was suppose to win more than the 14 cups he won, and ignore giving young players an opportunity to prove themselves.

Okay

I guarantee that if barca should get srna, all those people jumping all over cleaning Roberto has the shining example, would have a foot in there mouth, because Luis will do what luis does and go with the experience player.

Roberto should be happy Vidal is not uo to standard, and there is no real top options RB on the market right now.

 

[JamDav1982]

See just goes to show, some people want to win a treble every season.

He was suppose to win more than the 14 cups he won, and ignore giving young players an opportunity to prove themselves.

Okay

No it doesnt show that people want the treble every season it shows that not all youngsters are good enough and it can hold the squad back.

You might have a point if Tello or Cuenca went to develop into players for the club but they were just not good enough.

Again trying this straw man arguments as if anyone is saying 14 trophies is not enough as you are desperate to make this an anti Pep argument.

The point is that promoting youngsters who are not ready is a risk while you act like there is no downside at all.

Despite all that Lucho is debuting as many b team players as Pep. Has promoted more and has given big chances to many of them.

Pep also loans young players at Bayern and Man City... guess he is passing the buck about developing them to? Or is this just more one sided logic?

 

[JamDav1982]

I guarantee that if barca should get srna, all those people jumping all over cleaning Roberto has the shining example, would have a foot in there mouth, because Luis will do what luis does and go with the experience player.

Roberto should be happy Vidal is not uo to standard, and there is no real top options RB on the market right now.

The vast majority of time Pep went for experience as well.

Why did he not use Bartra more when in desperate need of a CB? Why not promote Sergi Roberto instead of buying Cesc? Why sign Ibra when there is Bojan in the squad.

 

[jamrock]

The vast majority of time Pep went for experience as well.

Why did he not use Bartra more when in desperate need of a CB? Why not promote Sergi Roberto instead of buying Cesc? Why sign Ibra when there is Bojan in the squad.

smh

 

[ini4ever]

I think Lucho is capable of developing players. He kept Munir for 2 years and just now he decided to sent him out on loan. Managed Roberto very well too. And we have to take into consideration the expectations now. When Pep took over, Barça had finished 4th in la liga. Pep also had prime Xavi and Iniesta, forming the best midfield ever with Busi, and Messi. That allowed for some freedom to test some forwards too.

Lucho inherited a trophyless Barça, where the expectations now are the treble every season. Barça won the domestic double last season, and yet you see people complaining, like that was a bad season. You can't have that overload and still expect the coach to focus on developing players too much. One side would need to give, and surely it wouldn't be the side about winning trophies. Can't have it all, and I think Lucho is even managing to balance everything well, considering.

Well, with due all respect I don't. Again I say it's not about giving players enough minutes, Lucho is like ' Hey kid Im playing you now there, if you don't impress me you'll be sent loan ' , and he lets players grow and prove themselves under new coach ( if they didn't under himself )if they did, then he let them get back again. And that's it. all the missing parts of puzzle in this debate go here. he doesn't try to make player better in terms of technical. he likes to let player proves himself rather than he tries to give him the circumstances he does.

He lets MSN ( mostly ) or Raki/Iniesta create chances by themselves but not in a specific method. it's like 'Hey Leo I don't care how you're gonna set up attacks, but you should do it at the end' and that's it. and he goes to new players like this not by ' hey kid Im giving you this method if you got the ball you should do that way, you shouldn't move to some area , and stick to your duty '

Beside that, I do believe just saying a coach had 'prime' players is a bit unfair, this kind of 'prime' doesn't come out of nowhere all of a sudden, before coming Pep, Xavi was 28 year old, Iniesta 24, they were hell such good players and world class without a doubt, but this prime came by the perfect system Pep had found for them,And Im not saying they hadn't enough potential or something like that, it's like Messi's condition when he can produce well in Barca due its system and not well or not as good as Barca, but that doesn't mean Messi didn't have any impact on Argentina ( Obviously they reached three finals coz of him ) . But could have we witnessed Xaviesta prime together if they had another coach and how they reached at their max level ? I doubt so.

I think it's not about put all your efforts on developing and then you're gonna lose trophies, if it was so Pep wouldn't have won many trophies ( I don't say just focus on developing, when you develop players they bring you success automatically )

And about your last statement I agree , Lucho is damn good at controlling the issues and situations just like Carlo or Ferguson, Again Im going to say its not bad if you're lack of something, No one is perfect at all aspects.

 

[JamDav1982]

Well, with due all respect I don't. Again I say it's not about giving players enough minutes, Lucho is like ' Hey kid Im playing you now there, if you don't impress me you'll be sent loan ' , and he lets players grow and prove themselves under new coach ( if they didn't under himself )if they did, then he let them get back again. And that's it. all the missing parts of puzzle in this debate go here. he doesn't try to make player better in terms of technical. he likes to let player proves himself rather than he tries to give him the circumstances he does.

he lets MSN ( mostly ) or Raki/Iniesta create chances by themselves but not in a specific method. it's like 'Hey Leo I don't care how you're gonna set up attacks, but you should do it at the end' and that's it. and he goes to new players like this not by ' hey kid Im giving you this method if you got the ball you should do that way, you shouldn't move to some area , and stick to your duty '

Beside that, I do believe just saying a coach had 'prime' players is a bit unfair, this kind of 'prime' doesn't come out of nowhere all of a sudden, before coming Pep, Xavi was 28 year old, Iniesta 24, they were hell such good players and world class without a doubt, but this prime came by the perfect system Pep had found for them,And Im not saying they hadn't enough potential or something like that, it's like Messi's condition when he can produce well in Barca due its system and not well or not as good as Barca, but that doesn't mean Messi didn't have any impact on Argentina ( Obviously they reached three finals coz of him ) . But could have we witnessed Xaviesta prime together if they had another coach and how they reached at their max level ? I doubt so.

I think it's not about put all your efforts on developing and then you're gonna lose trophies, if it was so Pep wouldn't have won many trophies ( I don't say just focus on developing, when you develop players they bring you success automatically )

And about your last statement I agree , Lucho is damn good at controlling the issues and situations just like Carlo or Ferguson, Again Im going to say its not bad if you're lack of something, No one is perfect at all aspects.

Pep sends players on loan as well.

Do you think every loan is a manager putting their hands up and saying they cant develop a player?

It is more about them believing the player is not yet ready and first time experience is better to help them grow. Hoping they come back having developed and gained tht experience.

How many players are you saying Pep developed in the four years?

 

[JamDav1982]

smh

Aye you refuse to look at times Pep didnt trust young players as much as you claim as doesnt fit with your narrative.

 

[ini4ever]

Pep sends players on loan as well.

Do you think every loan is a manager putting their hands up and saying they cant develop a player?

It is more about them believing the player is not yet ready and first time experience is better to help them grow. Hoping they come back having developed and gained tht experience.

Yes he does. Ofc what we talking about here it's not 100% accurate, always. Because nothing is pure, Yes Pep does also loan players but does he the majority of his players ? No.

I don't but you're even admitting it yourself, And all the discussion is about this, Lucho doesn't develop players by himself, he prefers someone who's already been.

 

[JamDav1982]

Yes he does. Ofc what we talking about here it's not 100% accurate, always. Because nothing is pure, Yes Pep does also loan players but does he the majority of his players ? No.

I don't but you're even admitting it yourself, And all the discussion is about this, Lucho doesn't develop players by himself, he prefers someone who's already been.

You are totally missing the point.

Loans are used by all managers including Pep to help develop players. There are more young players on loan from Man City currently than from Barca. As there was more young players out on loan from Bayern last year than from Barca.

Not all players as Lucho has shown with Roberto.

It is nothing to do with passing on the buck of developing them.

How many players did Pep develop from B team players to undisputed starters at Barca?

The way you describe loaning out players is as if it is worse than promoting a player and barely using them.

 

[ini4ever]

Not all players as Lucho has shown with Roberto.

You're just repeating things over and over while I've mentioned it earlier . in any context you would find one example to come against of someone's argument

The way you describe loaning out players is as if it is worse than promoting a player and barely using them.

Why on earth would i describe it such, I've never complained about Lucho for such things, because this is how he does. I've just said you are bringing up some nonsense facts which absolute has got nothing to Pep. but if you want to keep believing yourself Lucho has got some ability whereas he hasn't then it's fine mate.

 

[JamDav1982]

You're just repeating things over and over while I've mentioned it earlier . in any context you would find one example to come against of someone's argument



Why on earth would i describe it such, I've never complained about Lucho for such things, because this is how he does. I've just said you are bringing up some nonsense facts which absolute has got nothing to Pep. but if you want to keep believing yourself Lucho has got some ability whereas he hasn't then it's fine mate.

Nonsense facts?

Just as you keep repeating that Lucho loans out players to pass on the reposibility of developing them which is false. So I will keep bringing ip Roberto to dispute that.

There are more young players on loan from City than Barca. Where have you arrived at conclusion Pep loans out players less than Lucho?

Both seem to see it as a key tool in developing players that are too good for reserve or B side and not good enough yet for first team role.

How many players did Pep develop from B team to first team starters?

 

[ini4ever]

Nonsense facts?

Oh god, I meant Aryagorn and before talking-stuffs about Pep not you.