Luis Enrique
- Thread starter Barcaman
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FlaFCB
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I think it's mainly because Alves is not there anymore, and he has no one to link up with. He hasn't developed a partnership with Bob, Rakitic or Gomes. Only one he seems to like is Denis, but he doesn't play much.
So Messi is drifting so he can play with Iniesta or Neymar/Arda. That's my impression now.
And that's something Licho needs to fix fast, the rw is always empty. Attacking only thru the left or middle is making us predictable.
How does Messi develop that partnership with Bob if he runs away from him right from the start?
Alik
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FlaFCB
Guest
They train together, and that's when they should be doing that. Maybe Bob just can't, overwhelmed with having to defend as well. Also, chemistry sometimes happens or it doesn't.
Did he tell you that he will?
Really? I have seen Sergi Roberto receiving the ball on the wing, begging for a RW to link up with, but there is none so he resorts to passing backward.
He's not overwhelmed with defence. He is always there looking to link up but Messi has already gone centrally, crowding the zone Suarez occupies
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FlaFCB
Guest
He is not always there. Vidal actually did a better job as an attacking rb than Bob usually does. And as I said, chemistry can't be forced.
And Messi also drifts centrally because he wants the ball. There's a systematic failure with the team setup right now. Barça's only creative side is now the left. Why Messi is gravitating there recently.
serghei
Senior Member
I think that might be true, but Messi shouldn't be allowed to just vacate his spot just because he doesn't like playing with X or Y. He is a player, not a manager, he still has to listen to the manager no matter how good he is. If Lucho is telling him to play there and he plays somewhere else just because he wants to, it's bad news. For both Lucho and Messi.
Unless Lucho is giving Messi complete freedom, in which case he alone is to blame for this odd formation.
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FlaFCB
Guest
Can't really blame this on Messi. Even if he isn't given freedom, if the ball doesn't get to him, he goes deep to find it. One of the problems was not replacing Alves with a similar player. But bypassing the middle can't be on Messi either. Maybe Iniesta should play as RCM, to see if this brings some balance. It's not a matter of liking to play with someone either, but if he can find an understanding with them, chemistry. Right now we're starting more and more to resemble argentina.
serghei
Senior Member
It is on Messi if Lucho is telling him to play RW and he doesn't. The manager instructs the player where he should play. But I don't think Lucho tells Messi exactly where to play, but rather tells him to decide on his own and move around based on his extremely high football IQ. But the big problem is you don't just give Messi freedom, without making sure there is enough fluidity in the system that we can adjust our position to still use the right flank in offense.
I think Messi is the player that Lucho is giving the most freedom to. And this is how Messi interprets where he should play, based on the fact that there is no Alves to link up with. So he kind of feels he is not activated often enough if he stays on RW. Alves was the best fullback playmaker in the history of Barcelona.
Anyway this situation shows how wrong those posters where when saying Alves was done, and Montoya was better. It really was a huge error of judgment. The press made this error as well. Many didn't understand just how important Alves was for our whole right side, the complexity of his roles, and the difficulty of having such a risky game, both attacking and defending.
Alves was a better version of Marcelo.
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Alik
Moderator
I am not the one telling people they are dreaming as if I know any better.
i_bleed_blaugrana
Senior Member
From what I'm seeing, with the gap of quality at the right, it's why I'd argue that either Rafinha or Denis should be our starting RCM. There is no questioning the void felt by Dani, just as noticeable as the void of Xavi's departure, both of whom were on the right. So no coincidence. Important to keep in mind Rakitic was never Xavi's replacement, he was Cesc's.
So really, the coaching staff is asking 3 relatively new players, who don't have a ton of experience in that positon in a similar system, (Rafinha, Gomes, Denis) to fill Xavi's role. It's simply not realistic in this context for the players both in where they are in their careers and their style of play. Gomes and at times Denis demonstrate they can bring control like Xavi but they are far from dominant in this aspect of their play.
So without the control, what we should aim to gain is an overlapping and interchanging the RW and that's what Messi is craving when he drifts inside. What made us work last season when Xavi left was how Messi, Dani and Raki would share that position while the other two would, positionally speaking, occupy the RB on the overlap wide and the RW inside or near the box. Right now, with Dani gone and Raki's form to the winds, Messi feels like he has to drift so inside just so he can either link-up or create a scoring opportunity with an incisive pass.
So that's why I think it makes the most sense to counter-act that with Denis/Rafinha in the RCM. Gomes/Raki are good subs or when we wanna play defensive but really for the sake of the team, Denis/Rafinha should start. I say this mainly because Denis has shown both a willingness to go for the incisive pass and to take a man on in the dribble. On the right, it's easy for him to drift wide because of how quick he is and his ability 1v1 can be best exploited out wide. Rafinha is also particularly proficient in this department too but he's not as consistent of a passer as Denis. However, he's showing an eye for goal this season so that's his advantage.
Apparently Lucho likes Gomes and that's understandable. He's shown flashes and I want to see him with Iniesta a bit more. But I just feel like Gomes and Raki are both redundant in the squad and one needs to go this summer imho. I just like what I see from Denis and I think that once he gets a bit more experience here, he could bring a new dimension that's his own the position.
So really, the coaching staff is asking 3 relatively new players, who don't have a ton of experience in that positon in a similar system, (Rafinha, Gomes, Denis) to fill Xavi's role. It's simply not realistic in this context for the players both in where they are in their careers and their style of play. Gomes and at times Denis demonstrate they can bring control like Xavi but they are far from dominant in this aspect of their play.
So without the control, what we should aim to gain is an overlapping and interchanging the RW and that's what Messi is craving when he drifts inside. What made us work last season when Xavi left was how Messi, Dani and Raki would share that position while the other two would, positionally speaking, occupy the RB on the overlap wide and the RW inside or near the box. Right now, with Dani gone and Raki's form to the winds, Messi feels like he has to drift so inside just so he can either link-up or create a scoring opportunity with an incisive pass.
So that's why I think it makes the most sense to counter-act that with Denis/Rafinha in the RCM. Gomes/Raki are good subs or when we wanna play defensive but really for the sake of the team, Denis/Rafinha should start. I say this mainly because Denis has shown both a willingness to go for the incisive pass and to take a man on in the dribble. On the right, it's easy for him to drift wide because of how quick he is and his ability 1v1 can be best exploited out wide. Rafinha is also particularly proficient in this department too but he's not as consistent of a passer as Denis. However, he's showing an eye for goal this season so that's his advantage.
Apparently Lucho likes Gomes and that's understandable. He's shown flashes and I want to see him with Iniesta a bit more. But I just feel like Gomes and Raki are both redundant in the squad and one needs to go this summer imho. I just like what I see from Denis and I think that once he gets a bit more experience here, he could bring a new dimension that's his own the position.
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FlaFCB
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Hopefully Xavi is giving licho instructions again
Hopefully Xavi is giving licho instructions again
Messi983
Senior Member
We could also add Arda to that list. Yes, he's more experienced than other three but he's also still pretty new in our system.
I think there is no "Xavi role" in our current system. Not because we don't have players that are similar to Xavi (which is true) but because Lucho has changed system so the role of RCM is not as much in controling the midfield than just giving a balance between defense and MSN. And that's exactly what Rakitić has provided to us since he's here. He does a lot of "dirty work" so I still can't believe how underappreciated he is by some people. Yes, overall he's an inferior player to Xavi at his peak (but so would be almost any other player so that's not an insult for Rakitić) but one of the reasons why I think we were really able to move on after Xavi left (and even in his last season when he was some sort of "closer" for us in the last 20-30 minutes in most games) easier than most of us expected was that Lucho changed the focus of our team from midfield dominance to MSN. And as long as Lucho is our coach (I believe he'll stay at least for the next season) I don't see that changing. That's why I don't understand why some people want us to sign someone like Verratti (not that we'd get him anyway). Of course he's a great player but if he'd play in current Rakitić's role he wouldn't bring us that much control (that some people are so obsessed with) and creativity because he would just need to work much more in defense and I think he'd be worse in that part of the game than Rakitić. And personally I think we should give more chances to our current young midfielders to see if they can replace Iniesta when he declines/leaves before we spent 60 or 70M for another midfielder.
We don't know who our next coach will be and what system he'll use so we don't know if we'll need a controling midfielder or not. If Xavi will be a direct Lucho's replacement in 2-3 years he'll most likely go back to tiki-taka style he knows the best (I have no idea what type of football his current team in Qatar plays but I hope he'll learn something new than just tiki-taka as did Pep when he went to Italy and Mexico in later part of his playing career). So in that case we'll need that type of midfielder but for all we know he could turn Denis/Gomes/Alena into that or use someone like Samper (If he'll still be here which I hope he will) in that CM role. If we'll get someone like Sampaoli or Valverde who are not as obsessed with controling the midfield then we probably won't need that type of midfielder.
As for our current midfielders, I wasn't big fan of Gomes signing when it happened but now that he's here he deserves more than 4 months to prove what he's capable off. He's not as "shitty" as some people think. Of course, If anyone still compares him to Xavi (or Iniesta when he plays at his position) then he looks bad in his eyes. I agree that he alongside with Denis and Rafinha is still not experienced enough to control midfield on his own but that's why I think Lucho should always play one of the new signings alongside the more experienced Iniesta or Rakitić. Of course injuries and bad form of some players also prevented us from doing that but I also believe Lucho just tried to see if and how different combination of players can play together. Because after our best midfield Iniesta-Busquets-Rakitić who he knows can play together (but also didn't on as high level as expected for multiple reasons so far) he didn't really knew much about our other midfielders before the season. Yes, experimenting costed us points but it's better to do that in September or November than in March or May. Now I think he should already know who fits where in midfield better and he should start fielding better lineups in second half of the season.
For now I'd use Gomes mostly in Rakitić's role against the teams that are expected to sit back. Against high pressuring teams I still prefer Rakitić. Of course he can occasionaly play as DM to give rest to Busquets but I'd only do that in home games.
I think Denis is the most likely Iniesta replacement from our current first team midfielders. So I'd use him when don Andres is resting. So far he's been better against teams that have left him more space (which of course is understandable) but he didn't show too much against teams parking the bus when he started.
So let's look at our January La Liga fixtures and midfields I'd use in those games.
- Villarreal away: no experiments here, Rakitić-Busquets-Iniesta should start
- Las Palmas home: I don't expect them to totally sit back like Granada so Denis could be in good position to start here alongside Busi and Raketa, then bring in Iniesta if needed in second half or one/two of Rafinha/Arda/Gomes if we are in a good position.
- Eibar away: I'd go with Iniesta, Busquets and Gomes, sub in Denis/Rafinha/Arda in second half if we need more creativity
- Betis away: Denis/Rafinha-Busquets-Rakitić
Of course Copa games will be played in midweek all month and we don't know fixtures yet so Lucho could field stronger lineups in those games if we draw one of RM/AM/Sevilla and maybe Villarreal but I think La Liga should still be our priority.
As for Arda and Rafinha, I'd mostly use them in LW/RW (although we know Messi won't rest) positions in CDR games or bring them in as subs. And use Gomes to rest Busi in CDR games, especially at Camp Nou.
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