Luis Enrique

Darko

New member
It seems to me that some people intentionally remember the entire 08-12 era by two games against Chelsea.

This.
The 2010/2011 side was the best ever, period.
That Barca was awesome, this Barca is awesome and you can't win every game, especially when you play with Roberto, Masche, Rafinha in midfield and Adriano,Bartra and Verminator in defense or with the dozens of missed chances in 2011/2012 and with Cuenca in the starting 11.
Somebody mentioned that we were never dominated under Pep, but there are different kinds of domination, if you lose the possesion battle but create numerous chances with counters it's still domination, therefore it's safe to say Madrid dominated us in the game where Tello played.
 

Morten

Senior Member
This.
The 2010/2011 side was the best ever, period.
That Barca was awesome, this Barca is awesome and you can't win every game, especially when you play with Roberto, Masche, Rafinha in midfield and Adriano,Bartra and Verminator in defense or with the dozens of missed chances in 2011/2012 and with Cuenca in the starting 11.
Somebody mentioned that we were never dominated under Pep, but there are different kinds of domination, if you lose the possesion battle but create numerous chances with counters it's still domination, therefore it's safe to say Madrid dominated us in the game where Tello played.

Nah, im pretty sure that according to Xavi we never deserved a win against you because possession. So you cant dominate or earn a win with less possession.I wonder why he was so quiet after the bayern games, were barca won with less possession. Hypocrite?
 

Stric

New member
The match where RM dominated us under Pep was the second leg in the CDR in 2012 and in the 1st half of the CDR final.

Tbh that time around April was probably the worst of any time with Pep. Which is exactly why I am not surprised that people like to dig that up as the example to illustrate with, now that Pep the Traitor is gone and Lucho the Savior is here.
 

Stric

New member
You still have a problem with Lucho, Stric?

Other than his attitude which was visible from day one, I don't have a problem with him at all. He's proven to be a good coach. I don't even mind anything with the Supercopa situation, he did what he could. I just don't give him as much credit as probably many/most others do for certain aspects of last season's success. What I do have a problem with, however, is trying to paint a picture of him as some kind of mastermind manager by distorting and diminishing our previous success with the most successful manager this club has ever had. Pep's approach worked in his time, Lucho's works in his own. If we separated their approaches from their context, they probably wouldn't work. I also have a problem with people exaggerating Pep's, Tito's and Tata's failures with the goal of somehow inflating Lucho's managerial genius.
 
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KyletheMuslim

Guardiolista
This.
The 2010/2011 side was the best ever, period.
That Barca was awesome, this Barca is awesome and you can't win every game, especially when you play with Roberto, Masche, Rafinha in midfield and Adriano,Bartra and Verminator in defense or with the dozens of missed chances in 2011/2012 and with Cuenca in the starting 11.
Somebody mentioned that we were never dominated under Pep, but there are different kinds of domination, if you lose the possesion battle but create numerous chances with counters it's still domination, therefore it's safe to say Madrid dominated us in the game where Tello played.

I agree up until what you said about Pep's barca being dominated. Umm in that april clasico we said created more chances than madrid did. We were dominated however in the copa del rey second leg draw at the camp nou. But that was only one out of like 250 matches under pep. Also pep's team never lost by more than 2 goals, or ever conceded more than 3
 

xavi_the_Boss

New member
I agree up until what you said about Pep's barca being dominated. Umm in that april clasico we said created more chances than madrid did. We were dominated however in the copa del rey second leg draw at the camp nou. But that was only one out of like 250 matches under pep. Also pep's team never lost by more than 2 goals, or ever conceded more than 3

His Bayern team already did that 3 times.:lol:
 

Stric

New member
Yes, but Pep's Barca didn't, and that's what we're talking about here. It's surprising and kind of humiliating that Pep's Bayern got trashed like that several times, but what's the point of mentioning that, really? I'm not necessarily asking you, [MENTION=9271]xavi_the_Boss[/MENTION], I'm just saying because I've seen many comments like this lately. So many people are comparing Pep in Bayern to Lucho in Barcelona. Why aren't they comparing Pep in Barcelona to Lucho in Barcelona? Or is everything that Pep had done in Barcelona somehow irrelevant and less significant now that he hasn't replicated the success at another club? Is he somehow less of a coach now because he didnt? Do they think that Lucho would have won the treble with Bayern, too? It's just silly. People are belittling anything and anyone just to prop up something else. Something that never needed propping up to begin with. Lucho's Barca won the treble. That's a huge success. Be happy for that. Is it really necessary to start twisting facts about Pep's time here to make us feel even better about the current treble? Because that's what I see people doing lately.
 

Darko

New member
I agree up until what you said about Pep's barca being dominated. Umm in that april clasico we said created more chances than madrid did. We were dominated however in the copa del rey second leg draw at the camp nou. But that was only one out of like 250 matches under pep. Also pep's team never lost by more than 2 goals, or ever conceded more than 3

Yeah, my mistake, Alves scored a beauty in that game if I remember correctly.
 

mssarm

Member
Yes, but Pep's Barca didn't, and that's what we're talking about here. It's surprising and kind of humiliating that Pep's Bayern got trashed like that several times, but what's the point of mentioning that, really? I'm not necessarily asking you, [MENTION=9271]xavi_the_Boss[/MENTION], I'm just saying because I've seen many comments like this lately. So many people are comparing Pep in Bayern to Lucho in Barcelona. Why aren't they comparing Pep in Barcelona to Lucho in Barcelona? Or is everything that Pep had done in Barcelona somehow irrelevant and less significant now that he hasn't replicated the success at another club? Is he somehow less of a coach now because he didnt? Do they think that Lucho would have won the treble with Bayern, too? It's just silly. People are belittling anything and anyone just to prop up something else. Something that never needed propping up to begin with. Lucho's Barca won the treble. That's a huge success. Be happy for that. Is it really necessary to start twisting facts about Pep's time here to make us feel even better about the current treble? Because that's what I see people doing lately.
Because Pep had more years and finished his tenure with Barca , while Lucho had only 1 year and the project still going. You cannot compare them, they are not on equal basis. And why we need to compare?? Compare Xavi to Iniesta
 
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Alik

Moderator
Other than his attitude which was visible from day one, I don't have a problem with him at all. He's proven to be a good coach. I don't even mind anything with the Supercopa situation, he did what he could. I just don't give him as much credit as probably many/most others do for certain aspects of last season's success. What I do have a problem with, however, is trying to paint a picture of him as some kind of mastermind manager by distorting and diminishing our previous success with the most successful manager this club has ever had. Pep's approach worked in his time, Lucho's works in his own. If we separated their approaches from their context, they probably wouldn't work. I also have a problem with people exaggerating Pep's, Tito's and Tata's failures with the goal of somehow inflating Lucho's managerial genius.

Almost no one says that Lucho is a genius manager. The actual problem is a lot of the users diminishing Lucho's role.

The comparisons with Pep are brought on by people who want to criticize Lucho.
 

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
Long post warning.

I'm gonna start off by saying when comparing Lucho and Pep's Barcelona, its impossible to ignore how they functioned as players as influence in how they shape their team tactics today. Pep as we all know played at the heart of our midfield and made his bread and butter in being tactically one step ahead and using his technique and passing ability to help his team. Lucho, on the other hand, used his physique and drive to impose his will on opponents ruthlessly. To put it shortly, Pep played with his head, Lucho his heart.

This for me is the key variance that signifies both coaches and their teams qualities. Lucho's base is the same, but his execution is different enough for it to be measureable. Defensively, at least when this team is in form, he is more conservative in his approach and doesn't mind to have his lines deep. That's why we've seen more counters and direct play with much less build-up. Pep played and continues to play with a higher defensive line, forcing, coming from what others have said, opponents to park two boeings in front of goal.

Offensively, the key difference is, at least in short, were the degrees of freedom. Pep is neurotically methodical, it his greatest and worst quality, I'll come back to that later. Lucho is much less structured offensively and allows his players to be more expressive and feel out the game which allows our attacks to form much more organically. Particularly with players like Neymar, it's a system that's less mentally demanding and easier to adapt to if you aren't bred in La Masia.

That's as objective as I can be about the two. Personally I share [MENTION=12202]Stric[/MENTION] sentiment when comparisons of the two are made. Lucho is a great manager in his own right, I'm not nor can anyone rational say that he's not. It's just for our club, the philosophy we've been based on and how our club has structured itself in the sporting aspect (investment and trust in youth team, promotion system etc.), Pep's overall template was more in touch with the clubs ethos and in my opinion much more economically sustainable.

I am very fearful of this club turning into Real 2.0 after Messi leaves, especially with Barto money bags calling the shots. And this is my underlying distaste for Lucho's system. I'm not taking anything away from what Rakitic and Busi and Piqué's revival has done for the team but we for the most part ended up where we did due to MSN, one of which is a freak of nature, the other two being galacticos.

If Lucho's lasting legacy on this club is a top heavy style, reliant on players producing individual brilliance, especially with La Masia drying up rapidly, it's going to force us to just buy more players and further push the club toward the commercial path. Again, Lucho is an excellent coach but in my opinion, his instinct was right when he first tried Roma, his style best suits an Italian team. Defensive discipline, physicality, quick paced attacks, these were common themes in past great Italian teams and had he gone to a club with more financial clout than Roma, I think he would have been more successful.

The thing about Pep's style, at least to me, is it's more team-oriented, easier to replicate and it's not something that requires players to be individually skilled. Philip Lahm is a perfect example of this. Nothing flashy, he's not going to hit screamers or dribble in his half like Dani Alves, he's just does the basics with precise execution and plays with his head. He took to his style like a fish to water. From a coaching aspect, it's much easier to nuture players like Lahm, Xavi, Puyol, Pedro, Busquets, players who play with their heads but do the small things well than buy players like Neymar and hope it works out.

Pep showed the world how effective possession football can be in this era and I think he has bent the trajectory of the game, now and into the future. Coaches 10, 15, 20 years from now will be talking about and referencing him like we talk about Cryuff and Rinus today. His style, unquestionably, catapulted the Spanish NT from underachievers to world beaters, for 4 years. Only Beckenbauer had that sort of impact on his club and country to find a comparison, as far as longevic dominance. When he was here, I thought he was going to be our Sir Alex Ferguson and I think he will be whenever he does come back. For me, I think he'd still be here if we had repeated the CL or if the whole Ibrah and Mou media shitshow wouldn't have been a thing. That's the thing for me: Inter in 2009 and Chelsea in 2011 was simply margins. With Inter, yeah they played well in the first leg but they had two questionable goals in the first leg and we were all over them in the 2nd leg. They clung for dear fucking life and if Ibrah hadn't reduced the game to virtually 10 on 11, things might go different, not to mention Bojan's disallowed goal, which could have completely changed his career. Think about it. Who knows, we simply sell Eto'o and buy Villa a season early, maybe we repeat the treble. Chelsea 2011 was even more a fluke and a sham. RDM is a great defensive coach (another coach I'd like to see in Italy) but we even moreso outclassed them then during Inter for comparison. Villa's CWC injury completely changed our season that year. We'd create chance after chance after chance and besides Messi, who had to score an insane amount of goals himself to keep us competitive, they'd go to waste. Who knows, Villa stays healthy that season, maybe we defend the CL? (Moudrid were excellent that year in La Liga, Ozïl was flying that season).

My point is, it was the narrowest of margins that kept Pep's team from being even more successful than they were. For those 4 seasons, it was no question which team was the best in Europe. If things go a bit different, I think there is enough to reasonably speculate that he'd might still be here.

Now it remains to be seen if Lucho can have this sort of impact but from what I've seen from this team so far, I don't think he can sustain this for nearly as long. We've seen how much of a dip in quality has resulted in Neymar's abscence. One player is absent and the system is severely blunted. I know others might disagree with me, but Pep's system was not this vulnerable. Yes, he was reliant on Messi and Xaviniesta but every team is reliant upon their star players to make their systems work. With Pep's, players like Bojan, Pedro, Keita, Thiago, Afellay etc. could have greater impacts as subs and role players than players like Munir, Roberto, Bartra and Rafinha can in Lucho's system.

To conclude, Lucho is basically using a modified version of Pep's tactics. It's the same formation, with the same overlapping wing backs with intense pressing and tight passing in the build up in the middle to attacking third. He's just made it more defensive, less reliant on precision passing and positioning and with a world class trio up top. Basically a more defensive Pep 2008 with Henry-Eto'o-Messi. If the tables were flipped and it were Pep inheriting Lucho's team, I don't think it'd be nearly as strong.

Now I know Tata definitely influenced things a bit but for the most part, Pep's style stayed intact up until Lucho arrived. I think Pep can learn a lot from Lucho about being flexible and adaptable, that's the best quality we have now when we are in full rhythm is are ability to know when to hold the ball and when to run. But for me, Pep's style is better for this club. Not better in general, better specially for this club.

We will never find someone who is better suited to coach this club, at least until Xavi starts coaching, and it's plainly because he was bred in this club. The basis of everything for him in terms of football stems from this club and Lucho can't say that, he didn't have the experiences Pep did. It's why he was like a kid again at the City game.

Both great managers who have gotten the best out of the best club player of all time.
 

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