Malcom

[serghei]

Well forgive I disagree with an implication that it is in fact some mere job that anyone who has kicked a ball in their life can learn to do and at that level too. Managing personalities and skills of the world's best seniors and talents while having almost corporate responsibility for the represented brand isn't so piss easy... Anyone who has been a manager or supervised human resources at any level will see some parallels to the challenges EV has to face up to every day. In the same way, anybody who has been a worker all their life that was told what to do and when to do it will almost never be able to relate. That's something that seems to be very common on discussion boards, particularly when fans confess to what it is they do on a daily basis.

There are some easier parts, some not so easier parts, like in every job almost. Some skills you need to have in order to make it. Some flaws which can stop you from reaching your goals. You can always debate to estimate just how hard it is to do something and it leads nowhere because it's all circumstantial.

Valverde is a manager in a sport that has a huge following, and there are many fans out there who really understand the game and can form a clear opinion on a manager based on his skills, based on what they think he is lacking, based on his personality, and especially based on his current results. That's the cost of being part of something popular. Many people will have an opinion about you.

This 'poor Valverde' thing doesn't stick. He knew the requirements, he knew the standard, and he's failing to meet them. He officially has the most expensive squad in the world according to transfermarkt, rated at 1.03bn euros, and he's somehow producing worse football than Tata Martino's Barca.

 

[BBZ8800]

BBZ says our squad is too old

But then says he'll take Willian over Malcom.

BBZ is as confused as a contestant on the bachelorette.

BBZ will twist any argument as he sees fit as long as it suits his agenda of Valverde worship

As said several times:
If Roberto sucks as a Rb, that doesn't mean that Semedo is actually good.
They both suck.

So, I have said that our squad is too old.
That still doesn't mean that tired Arthur or nobody-knows-anything-about-him Malcom are solutions.
Short term: Willian would probably help us for 2 seasons.
Long term: neither Willian or Arthur will help us.
We will just buy 5 new wingers and then eventually we will hit a jackpot with one.

Our team is good, but old.
If you replace an old player/winger with a younger player, you earned skills in physical skills and motivation and you lost tons of skills in actual skills, experience.
Some will reply: well, to get an experience, you need to play.
Well, you can't give chances to everyone.
Alena needs chances.
Arthur needs chances.
Dembele needs chances.
Semedo needs chances.
Puig needs chances.
Malcom needs chances.

In the next season, sell 2-3 of those and add 2-3 new names and the guys from above will need more chances to improve more and you'll have 2-3 new guys who will again need chances.
In short: we are not Dortmund, Porto, Ajax or Arsenal to do that.

Roughly (or an example) to give 10-15 matches/chances to every single of those players, we would need 100 spots in a team for testing/developing over season.
In reality, a team like Barcahave let's say: only 50 free spots per season for testing, if you want to keep good results.

This is why:
1. only some kids will get chances, not all of them
2. and if you don't take chances from the start, you could soon lose chances, unless if you are out of this world talent who will geta 2nd chance

In short:
1. there is no time/space for everyone to get chances at Barca
2. not all will get the same amount of chances. That depends on player's potential, how much competition there is for his position, whether a club is in a close battle for La liga or 10 points on top or behind a leader, and how a kid plays in the first matches.
If he is meh, chances for new chances are rapidly declining.

 

[Cule4life]

BBZ i'm curious how many minutes should a young player get before you dismiss him as not Barca level?

 

[BBZ8800]

BBZ i'm curious how many minutes should a young player get before you dismiss him as not Barca level?

You know that the question is somewhat stupid and that it is hard to explain it.
But anyway, let's have some fun

I'll use some numbers to explain my idea:
Dembele vs Malcom vs let's say Sandro

Dembele:
1. best young player at French ligue 1,1
2. very good in Dortmund
3. overally rated as one of world's best talents by many journos, coaches, fans
Let's say that these things have earned him "20 credits/coins" for Barca's career.

If he'll play like a crap on training grounds, he will lose 5-10 coins and have only 10 coins/chances left.
He will get a certain amount of matches.
If in a match he'll play well, he'll earn extra coin.
If he'll play bad, he will lose 1 coin.
If he will play average/ok, he will stay on the same number of coins.
So:
15 coins before a match
1) if you play well, you will earn a coin=15+1=16 coins now left
2) if you play bad, you will lose a coin=15-1=14 coins left
3) if you play average/ok, you will stay on the same level=15 coins still left

So, let's say that Dembele had 20 coins when he came here.
He lost 5 coins with some training problems, injuries, not stretching, eating unhealthy.
But still had 15-ish coins/chances left.

He played a few bad games, and dropped to 10 coins left.
But he had some good games (Juve).
Over time he dropped to 5 coins in spring 2018'.
But in the end of a season, he played better and stayed on 5-10 coins.
So, he still had some chances left for a 2nd season, even though a board considered selling him during summer due to his drop of coins from 20 when he was signed to 5 coins at the end of a season.

In this season, he started well, and improved his number of coins, to let's say 15.
But in the last few matches, he played bad and dropped to 10 again.
If he'll play that way in the next Months, he will first get benched and then the board will consider selling him again.
If he'll start to play well, he will earn enough of coins and jump to 20-30 and he won't be sold and he will continue to play this coin-game in the 3rd season.

Now, Malcom:
1. he was not as good as Dembele in 2 countries
2. he is considered as a lesser talent in general

So, Dembele started with 20 coins.
Malcom, due to his lower potential, will start right away with only 10 coins/chances.

Let's say that he had 2 bad cameos till now, and his number of coins already dropped to 7-8.
Also, if he is bad (on skills) on training grounds, that will further lose some coins/chances from his Barca's career.
But anyway, let's assume that he still has 7-8 coins left...
If he'll play meh in matches when he'll get a chance, he will soon drop to 0 coins: he won't get new chances after that and the board will consider selling him in summer.
If he'll start to play good in the next matches, he will improve his coins-tally and buy more time to stay at Barca and show his worth.

For the end, Sandro Ramirez while he was here.
In general, way weaker potential than Dembele and Sandro.
And not too impressive in former teams like Dembele.

Dembele earned 20 starting coins due to his potential and previous history in other clubs.
Malcom earned 10 starting coins.
Sandro will earn only 6 coins.

And now, a player like Dembele can play 10-15 bad matches BUT he will still get some chances, since he started with a high number of credits/coins.
Some average talent like Sandro will get way fewer amount of chances.
And if he doesn't grab his chance right away (and improve his number of coins), he will soon run out of coins (6 matches) and he will hardly get new chances after that.

So, there is no answer: HOW MUCH time would you give to all players.
Imo, this is roughly how it works at Barca (without coins, of course, haha).
In short:
1. a player with a higher potential on paper will get more chances to prove himself.
And even if he'll suck in the beginning, he will get some amount of 2nd chances.
2. a player of a lower overal potential and of average history in Bteam or in other clubs, will get lower amount of chances to prove his worth.
And for him it will usually be: it's now or never from the game 1.
He will get 3-10 matches max in his Barca's career and that's it.
Unless he grabs a chance right away, he will be loaned or sold.
And a loan and some crazy perfrormances in a new club will be his last chance.
If he will be good on a loan, he may get back (Deulofeu) and earn 10 coins again.
But if he'll play bad again (after a loan spell), like Deulofeu, he will again lose all his coins and he will be sold for good this time.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Which also brings to light, which one of our players has actually improved under EV? I can't name a single player. You can't make a reasonable claim that any player has improved under him and by the looks of it, many of them have actually regressed.

So you have a squad with some world class players, some great players and some young talented players. Yet none of them have improved under this manager. So if no one is improving, the obvious choice is to go with the old reliable options on the table. and that's exactly what you get with EV.

1-Who should have improved under EV, certainly not a player under 2 months of professional football, surely not a player in the phase of physical decline either. Not GK for sure
How many is left to expect to improve? flops like Paco/Gomes/Denis?
How many are left really? Roberto, Semedo,Dembele,Coutinho,Digne? Am I missing any name?
Roberto actually looked much improved last season under him, especially with a functioning right side, Dembele has also improved from last year especially in goal scoring but still inconsistent, Digne was same player before and after EV, Coutinho is almost same player but in a less suiting system. Semedo is legit argument but even then still very small sample size.

PS: Sure EV has a lot to blame for not using more youth, although I won't take from him using Dembele, and if it happens that there was a clearly better player than him even if old one like Iniesta I won't blame him if he used the older one
And frankly, I was thinking after Bilbao game that Iniesta is one of the main differences from last season that is missing this year. He was our glue guy

2-I think you are overrating this squad, I never bought into the hype of it, not after January transfer window when everyone thought we are the best again, nor after last summer window with people drolling over Abidal.
After last summer I felt this squad screamed lack of true squad planning and assesment of team needs. And coach share the blame but it is more on the management lead by Abidal

We have old players that only people living in the past thinking they are world class and game changers. Busquets is old and liability, Suarez is old and liability,Pique is old and liability, Rakitic seem physically drained after world cup and going back to 433, although he might have lost a step too and became more of a liability, Messi himself has declined more and more than many people realize , stilld good but inconsistent and teams have figured how to stop him in CL when it matter.

S.Roberto/Semedo are nothing more than OK-ish starter at best -Roberto looked promising at times last year but he is back to old form this season-

Then you have players who are nothing more than old bench players like Vermaelen and Vidal, and player who are more like non impact subs like Rafinha/Samper/Denis falls to that category.

then you have the young exciting talents, Dembele is playing and he can give us hope he is the next Neymar on days while some other days look like poor man Di Maria, Arthur & Malcom are truly unknow in terms of their true quality, Lenglet look like a player who will held his own but still wait and see in terms of what he really offer (whether a sub or starter)

There was a need for another CB, there was a need for a new back up LB (the last U-21 defender we had goes back few decades so don't say Miranda) and may be RB, we needed a new striker too.
Sure the market is shit, but it is their job to work in a shitty market

3-That doesn't mean EV is blameless, he is surely takes tons of blame, he should have given Alena way more time, and should have been rutheless with his decision on some players and that they should have left, Malcom deserve more playing time but season is still young so I would want a bit before whining
But it isn't black and white, and some of those players might find their way through his team and others will end up proving him right.

One last thing and it isn't directed to you, EV wanted Willian because he is perfect fit for 442 and he gives us the option to play a different tactic, something we are missing after Paulinho left. Malcom is good player but he is a direct sub in 433, that will affect his minutes until he prove being worthy taking minutes from one of Dembele/Suarez. Although I still prefer him in bench over Denis

 

[MTL_Barca]

How many of our players got better after 2012?
Xavi declined
Iniesta also
Busi also
Messi also
Alves also
Pedro also

Mats improved.
Umtiti improved

Our core players are all aged 30, 31.
They are losing physical skills rapidly.
And when you are slower and when you have a weaker stamina, you are slowly weaker in everything:
Off the ball movement, forward runs, counters, defending, transition, 1 vs 1 duel, arial duels etc.

So, it is quite natural that majority of our players are getting worse each new Month, regardless of Valverde.
I posted several times: Mane, Firmino, Salah are all aged 26.
Of course that they improved from the age 23-24 to 26.
Has Klopp turned any 30 into a better player under him? No.
He sold all 30 years old since they are past their prime and they can't run that much anymore.

We had 4 coaches after Pep, and we got like 2-3 players who improved in their skills during in 7 years.
Regarding La Masia, well, La Masia worked like this always.
But due to our golden lucky generation, tons of fans started to believe that we are producing pure magic in our youth academy and that La Masia is actually better than youth academy from Real, Juve, Bayern or Man Utd.
Other teams are not idiots. We are now on their level, which means: 1-2 okish guys over 5 years, more or less.

Regardless of EV:
1. our core players are weaker and weaker each new year due to their age
2. regardless of EV, La Masia is not as magical as people think

About boring football, that thing is true.
But then, can you get (way) more than that with 30 years old players and with young players who are good on paper but questionable in reality (Dembele with 67% passing accuracy and lacking in football basics, Arthur tired after 30 minutes and playing backpasses for now, Malcom, nobody knows anything about this guy).

Look, my post may sound as if:
Valverde is good.
Well, he probably isn't too good.

But my feeling is that he isn't nowhere as bad as people think.
Our team is quite old and weaker each new Month.
And youngsters are nowhere near as good as people think.

With our current squad, EV is probably doing a decent job.
His 442 last season probably tried to solve problems of our aging midfield and lazy attackers.

If only the manager could do something about any of that. We just assume its absolutely impossible for a barca manager to push for a replacement of a 30+yo player but if we just assume thats true AND he can't get any player he wants AND our players can't play better football then yeah poor Ernesto doesn't have a chance but how can we know this is true?

I could see him having Salah, Firmino, Mane in attack and still playing the same boring football with you telling us these players just aren't good enough. Just like nobody had these 3 as a dream attack trio before Klopp bought Salah. Its Valverde. He's not a complete loser but he probably is just an average la liga coach and has shown nothing that says otherwise since he took his first big job at barca. Always playing safe boring football, getting bailed out by Messi over and over and CL was an embarrassment.

All in all you make it sound like its completely unthinkable that a coach has any positive effect on our players or team as a whole because everything is 100% set in stone and is unchangeable, our players are all either bad or tired and our talents are all Bojan level at max but even if all of that was true then Valverde still has shown nothing himself.

 

[Barcaman]

Valverde doesn't get to pick signings. Ideally, he would have more say but he doesn't think of Barca long term anyway so it's best this way. Malcom will have to ride it out until next summer when this average and uninspiring manager is gone from Barca.

 

[Cule4life]

http://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2018/10/01/5bb20995268e3e1b678b4649.html

Even Malcom doesn't know what's going on

 

[Raketa10]

You know that the question is somewhat stupid and that it is hard to explain it.
But anyway, let's have some fun

I'll use some numbers to explain my idea:
Dembele vs Malcom vs let's say Sandro

Dembele:
1. best young player at French ligue 1,1
2. very good in Dortmund
3. overally rated as one of world's best talents by many journos, coaches, fans
Let's say that these things have earned him "20 credits/coins" for Barca's career.

If he'll play like a crap on training grounds, he will lose 5-10 coins and have only 10 coins/chances left.
He will get a certain amount of matches.
If in a match he'll play well, he'll earn extra coin.
If he'll play bad, he will lose 1 coin.
If he will play average/ok, he will stay on the same number of coins.
So:
15 coins before a match
1) if you play well, you will earn a coin=15+1=16 coins now left
2) if you play bad, you will lose a coin=15-1=14 coins left
3) if you play average/ok, you will stay on the same level=15 coins still left

So, let's say that Dembele had 20 coins when he came here.
He lost 5 coins with some training problems, injuries, not stretching, eating unhealthy.
But still had 15-ish coins/chances left.

He played a few bad games, and dropped to 10 coins left.
But he had some good games (Juve).
Over time he dropped to 5 coins in spring 2018'.
But in the end of a season, he played better and stayed on 5-10 coins.
So, he still had some chances left for a 2nd season, even though a board considered selling him during summer due to his drop of coins from 20 when he was signed to 5 coins at the end of a season.

In this season, he started well, and improved his number of coins, to let's say 15.
But in the last few matches, he played bad and dropped to 10 again.
If he'll play that way in the next Months, he will first get benched and then the board will consider selling him again.
If he'll start to play well, he will earn enough of coins and jump to 20-30 and he won't be sold and he will continue to play this coin-game in the 3rd season.

Now, Malcom:
1. he was not as good as Dembele in 2 countries
2. he is considered as a lesser talent in general

So, Dembele started with 20 coins.
Malcom, due to his lower potential, will start right away with only 10 coins/chances.

Let's say that he had 2 bad cameos till now, and his number of coins already dropped to 7-8.
Also, if he is bad (on skills) on training grounds, that will further lose some coins/chances from his Barca's career.
But anyway, let's assume that he still has 7-8 coins left...
If he'll play meh in matches when he'll get a chance, he will soon drop to 0 coins: he won't get new chances after that and the board will consider selling him in summer.
If he'll start to play good in the next matches, he will improve his coins-tally and buy more time to stay at Barca and show his worth.

For the end, Sandro Ramirez while he was here.
In general, way weaker potential than Dembele and Sandro.
And not too impressive in former teams like Dembele.

Dembele earned 20 starting coins due to his potential and previous history in other clubs.
Malcom earned 10 starting coins.
Sandro will earn only 6 coins.

And now, a player like Dembele can play 10-15 bad matches BUT he will still get some chances, since he started with a high number of credits/coins.
Some average talent like Sandro will get way fewer amount of chances.
And if he doesn't grab his chance right away (and improve his number of coins), he will soon run out of coins (6 matches) and he will hardly get new chances after that.

So, there is no answer: HOW MUCH time would you give to all players.
Imo, this is roughly how it works at Barca (without coins, of course, haha).
In short:
1. a player with a higher potential on paper will get more chances to prove himself.
And even if he'll suck in the beginning, he will get some amount of 2nd chances.
2. a player of a lower overal potential and of average history in Bteam or in other clubs, will get lower amount of chances to prove his worth.
And for him it will usually be: it's now or never from the game 1.
He will get 3-10 matches max in his Barca's career and that's it.
Unless he grabs a chance right away, he will be loaned or sold.
And a loan and some crazy perfrormances in a new club will be his last chance.
If he will be good on a loan, he may get back (Deulofeu) and earn 10 coins again.
But if he'll play bad again (after a loan spell), like Deulofeu, he will again lose all his coins and he will be sold for good this time.

BBZ8800 can you sometimes answer a simple question with a simple answer? Honestly it's not fair to dismiss any potentially good player without giving him a chance, even more if that player costs 41 mil (Malcom) or has a high potential according to La Masia coaches (Alena). Also bare in mind that if someone plays 15 minutes in every 5th or 10th game it's hard for that player to perform well. For any half-serious judgement about players capacity he needs at least few months of non-stop playing time, and that's a fact. Even more if we know that for example Gomes got much more playing time than Alena. So no one is claiming Malcom is new Henry or Alena is new Iniesta we only want a fair treatment for those two and that wasn't case so far.

 

[BBZ8800]

BBZ8800 can you sometimes answer a simple question with a simple answer? Honestly it's not fair to dismiss any potentially good player without giving him a chance, even more if that player costs 41 mil (Malcom) or has a high potential according to La Masia coaches (Alena). Also bare in mind that if someone plays 15 minutes in every 5th or 10th game it's hard for that player to perform well. For any half-serious judgement about players capacity he needs at least few months of non-stop playing time, and that's a fact. Even more if we know that for example Gomes got much more playing time than Alena. So no one is claiming Malcom is new Henry or Alena is new Iniesta we only want a fair treatment for those two and that wasn't case so far.

I didn't dismiss Malcom.
He still has 5 coins left

Alena earned at least 15 coins, he will get 2 seasons of chances.

Gomes earned a lot of coins both in Lucho's and EV's eyes.
Probably both coaches for some reason rated him highly, either based on his Valencia's and Portugal's NT matches, or based on his training ground's skills and performances.
But he was never able to fulfill expectations on a field.
And eventually he lost all available coins.

When you think about my theory (without coins, of course) it reflects real life well:
1. the higher is a potential of a player on paper, he will get more chances to play
2. how a player will perform in his first 2-3-5-10 matches will either bring him more coins or he will be done (unless if he earned lots of coins from the start based on his high potential, like Dembele)
3. of course, there is a thing: is his spot in a team occupied with a lot of players already

So, for example, if Malcom will play equally as meh as Dembele in his first season, there is a higher chance that he will get sold, while Dembele wasn't.
Because Dembele had more "coins" from the start due to his higher potential ceiling. The higher is a potential reward, the more chances you will get even if you play bad.
The lower/more average is your ceiling and a potential reward for a club, the less chances you will get in general, and there is a higher chance that you will be "done" for good after 5-6 weaker matches.

 

[Jombi]

I didn't dismiss Malcom.
He still has 5 coins left

Alena earned at least 15 coins, he will get 2 seasons of chances.

Gomes earned a lot of coins both in Lucho's and EV's eyes.
Probably both coaches for some reason rated him highly, either based on his Valencia's and Portugal's NT matches, or based on his training ground's skills and performances.
But he was never able to fulfill expectations on a field.
And eventually he lost all available coins.

When you think about my theory (without coins, of course) it reflects real life well:
1. the higher is a potential of a player on paper, he will get more chances to play
2. how a player will perform in his first 2-3-5-10 matches will either bring him more coins or he will be done (unless if he earned lots of coins from the start based on his high potential, like Dembele)
3. of course, there is a thing: is his spot in a team occupied with a lot of players already

So, for example, if Malcom will play equally as meh as Dembele in his first season, there is a higher chance that he will get sold, while Dembele wasn't.
Because Dembele had more "coins" from the start due to his higher potential ceiling. The higher is a potential reward, the more chances you will get even if you play bad.
The lower/more average is your ceiling and a potential reward for a club, the less chances you will get in general, and there is a higher chance that you will be "done" for good after 5-6 weaker matches.

Dembele obviously wasnt sold because he was injured for a long time during the season and cost us 150m euros with the wage to match. Such an investment will always cause more patience.

 

[BBZ8800]

Dembele obviously wasnt sold because he was injured for a long time during the season and cost us 150m euros with the wage to match. Such an investment will always cause more patience.

Majority of those youth talents get 2 seasons to adapt and show their talent:
Simao Sabrosa 20, sold after 2 years
Geovanni Deiberson, 21, loaned after 2 seasons
Saviola 20, loaned after 3 seasons
Quaresma 20, sold after 1 season
Denis 22, 2+ seasons
Gomes 23, loaned after 2 seasons
Paco 22, loaned after 2 seasons
Digne 22, sold after 2 seasons
Mina 23, sold after 6 Months

It seems that 2 seasons is some kind of a norm at Barcelona for young players.
If you are a young player, you will usually get 2 seasons to prove your value.
In extreme cases, you will be sold after only 1 season, but majority of guys will get 2 seasons.

But if you were bad or average for 2 seasons, that is usually THE END of your Barca's story.

 

[gasgas]

Well basically this is what i think.

Both are the problem

The players are: crap, too old and finished

The coach is also crap

Crap + Crap = what we're seeing on TV

 

[BBZ8800]

Well basically this is what i think.

Both are the problem

The players are: crap, too old and finished

The coach is also crap

Crap + Crap = what we're seeing on TV

Board poor, without a plan.
A coach, not good enough.
Players way weaker than what fans think.

 

[jairzinho]

All this talk about coins, how much coins does Denis have, and how does he even get a place in the squad ahead of Malcolm ? IMO he shouldn’t have any coins at all. He’s a waste of space, a non contributor. He looked like shite in pre season and if good sense had prevailed, he should have been moved on in the off season. He’s a ‘good boy’, a La Masia kid, that’s how he earns his ‘coins’. Same can be said of Gomes. No matter how much crap he played, Ernie kept giving him minutes. Now you have a guy like Malcolm, who looked good in pre season and can contribute but doesn’t get picked. It doesn’t make any sense at all.