Manchester United

[Ursegor]

The Madrid defence has handled Barcelona quite well over the past year

I wrote that they won't be able to handle Rooney + RvP + Kagawa + Nani. Why would you bring Barca into this? Barcelona's style of play is completely different and solely revolves around controling possession and getting Messi on the end of every chance. Alexis and Pedro individually aren't as big a goal threat as RvP, Rooney or even Kagawa nowadays. Madrid have figured out that surrendering possession, keeping the lines tight, staying close to Messi and crowding the middle is the best way to keep Barca relatively quiet. United's offensive game works completely differently however and the defensive concept Madrid are applying against Barcelona won't work against Manchester United. They won't sit back and play purely on the counter as they do against Barcelona most of the time to begin with = more space for individual match winners such as RvP and Rooney = Real Madrid's defense getting under more pressure. And once Ramos and Pepe are under pressure, they tend to fuck up. Happens every time.

United will not go for a counter-attacking style and will play Young and Valencia.

Hello, Sir Alex.

I don't see how United's frontline has more goals than Madrid's.

RvP has scored 56 goals in 73 games in the past 2 seasons playing for inferior teams than Ronaldo for most of the time. Only 3 penalties in the league as well. Compared to Ronaldo's 16 penalties in the same time frame ... RvP also doesn't need 7+ shots per game to score a goal. He needs half the amount of that. RvP is a superior goalscorer than Ronaldo. He's a dick but he's playing pretty much at the same level as Falcao right now.

Rooney is a superior goalscorer than Benzema.

Kagawa is a superior goalscorer than Özil.

Nani and Di Maria are equal.

Real Madrid aren't as fearsome as you make them out to be. United's current offense can match them.

United always struggles against players who play in between the lines like Ozil.

Can you give some examples? The only mediapuntas I can recall who genuinly raped United are Xavi, Messi and Iniesta. Other than that they handled Cazorla and David Silva pretty well recently. It's more likely that Özil will get completely lost against a team like United playing at high speed. Mourinho might even start with Modric and Essien instead.

Ozil can take very good free-kicks and corners too.

Real Madrid are more prone to concede from set pieces.

 

[jamrock]

This game will be won and lost in midfield which is the weakest area of both teams. So the team that will be is the one that will exploit the weakness of the other best.
If man u have all their players back and play on the counter as Jose's teams tend to show their stupidity when the have the ball. They should win

 

[footyfan]

Ronaldo doesn't need 7+ shots to score a goal. His goal/shot ratio is messed up because he takes shots from irresponsible places. He doesn't do that in big games. Besides, I don't understand why you would discount penalties. Most of them are won by their front 4 which is why I said "Just because the goals are concentrated with 1 player doesn't make the front 4 as a whole less of a threat."

I brought Barcelona into the argument because they are the most difficult team in world football to defend against in terms of having skilful/talented players. It shows that the Madrid defence has quality which doesn't seem apparent to you. As far as different styles are concerned, I obviously agree with you - Man Utd are different to Barca. But I don't see what makes them so much better than Barca as far as Madrid are concerned. Crosses, is that what you think will trouble Madrid?

Besides your argument can be totally flipped: how about Benzema occupying Ferdinand/Evans. Ronaldo sneaking one in. Ronaldo vs Rafael is a total mismatch btw. Di Maria pressuring the shit out of Carrick/Cleverley.

Madrid will only attack United at home. Away they will be set up to counter-attack and Man Utd sure as hell will not sit back. So I'm gonna ignore your sarcasm here because you're being extremely hopeful if you think Ferguson will change his style against a Mourinho team. Kagawa and Nani combined have 11 starts this season. Young and Valencia have 26. Of course Kagawa has been injured and has a 2+ month absence. He has to be reintegrated into the team which has already started with mixed results. It's unlikely that both Kagawa and Nani will be preferred over Young+Valencia.

United did not handle Silva well last season. 6-1, 1-0 both games Silva was very good. United don't handle Mata well either. Muniain last year as well.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

Di Maria pressuring the shit out of Carrick/Cleverley.

Sorry, but in current form, Di Maria can't pressure freaking QPR; he's been terrible all season. Ronaldo vs Rafael is a mismatch, but there's no way he won't be double teamed. Barcelona are difficult, but Madrid are much better when they don't have possession, and suck against counter-attacking sides (watch recent matches if you disagree).

 

[footyfan]

Sorry, but in current form, Di Maria can't pressure freaking QPR; he's been terrible all season. Ronaldo vs Rafael is a mismatch, but there's no way he won't be double teamed. Barcelona are difficult, but Madrid are much better when they don't have possession, and suck against counter-attacking sides (watch recent matches if you disagree).

And what makes you think Madrid will try to keep possession? I fully expect Madrid to counter United, not the other way round.

In current form, Carrick > Xavi. But is that really saying much?

 

[Unbiased United]

Some really reasonable posts over the last few pages, so i'll contribute rather than lurking for a change.

The mistake some people are making though (not just in this thread) is that they are still making references to the United team which don't really hold true this season. I, like most United fans, really wanted SAF to strengthen the midfield in the last transfer window, however going off the first half of this season there are huge positives and its not so much an issue now. Carrick and Cleverly (especially Carrick) are doing great and really impose themselves against the opposition. I see people here still mentioning Scholes but he is very much a back up player and really is just a shadow of his former self. Carrick or Cleverly over Scholes any day, despite him being an absolute legend for us.

Don't get me wrong, as good as United have been in some areas this season, they have been equally bad in others. Our defence has been shocking at times and when we've had Scholes and Giggs playing together its been far to easy for teams to walk through us. But with Vidic back and a steady midfield you can already see the difference.

So for me here is a quick summary from the season so far-

Positives-
*Our attack in general, looks like we'll score every time we go forward.
*Carrick, one, if not THE best player for us this season. I'm not trying to say he's 'world class', I still think he'd be comfortably outplayed against a true midfirled like Barca's...but he is very good.
*RVP, a goal machine with an immense all round game. The complete striker, because not only does he score, but he turns provider frequently too.
*Kagawa, not played much obviously, but the signs are very promising when he does.
*Evra's offensive game.

There are more but they are the main ones for me.

Negatives-
*Evra's defensive game.
*Our defense, looks like we'll concede every time the other team goes forward (although two clean sheets and Vidic's return is looking promising)
*Valencia. Not sure whats happened, or if he has just been found out, but he has gone from our best player to possibly our worst. Needs a good rest to try and get 'it' back.

Sure there are more positives, but we are top of the league with a seven point lead, so that should be expected without seeming biased imo.

Team I'd love to see against Madrid, which I think would give us a great chance.


De gea

Rafael Vidic Evans Evra

Carrick Cleverly/Anderson

Nani Rooney Kagawa

RVP

That said, not really sure whats going to happen with Nani and I'd also be happy with more of a 442 and getting Hernandez up there with RVP and Rooney just behind. Going to be a close game for sure and I really can't understand the people who write United off so easily. I think a true neutral can see there probably really isn't that much between the teams, although obviously time will tell. For me its two very good, albeit incomplete, teams and I can't wait to see it.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

And what makes you think Madrid will try to keep possession? I fully expect Madrid to counter United, not the other way round.

In current form, Carrick > Xavi. But is that really saying much?

I'm wondering, what happens if both teams try to counter each other? I can as easily see United attempting to counter Madrid; they soaked up pressure against City some time ago if I'm not mistaken. And yes, it is saying much. The game is a month away, and Di Maria has been terrible all season. If he's sucked for five months, I don't see why a month will change anything.

I like your lineup ^, although I would prefer Hernandez over Nani. Otherwise, :beer2:.

 

[Ursegor]

Ronaldo doesn't need 7+ shots to score a goal. His goal/shot ratio is messed up because he takes shots from irresponsible places. He doesn't do that in big games. Besides, I don't understand why you would discount penalties. Most of them are won by their front 4 which is why I said "Just because the goals are concentrated with 1 player doesn't make the front 4 as a whole less of a threat."

I'm discounting penalties because statistically Real Madrid don't get anywhere near as many penalties in the CL as in La Liga where they even tend to get penalties for fouls outside the box. Also penalties are irrelevant when comparing the goalscoring ability of 2 forwards which we were trying to assess. Ronaldo scoring more goals than RvP just because he has taken 16 penalty kicks compared to RvP's 3 doesn't make him a superior goal threat in general. It just makes him a stat padder who takes every single spot kick.

I brought Barcelona into the argument because they are the most difficult team in world football to defend against in terms of having skilful/talented players. It shows that the Madrid defence has quality which doesn't seem apparent to you. As far as different styles are concerned, I obviously agree with you - Man Utd are different to Barca. But I don't see what makes them so much better than Barca as far as Madrid are concerned. Crosses, is that what you think will trouble Madrid?

This is such a meaningless comparison. United's defensive record in 2009 (champions) and 2011 (champions) was a lot better than Chelsea's in 2012 (6th). United also tend to triumph over Chelsea in head to head ties most of the time. Yet we toyed with United in both 2009 and 2011 but we still can't beat Chelsea. Why? Because "counterattack vs. counterattack" is not the same as "possession vs. counterattack". This isn't just about "crossess". It's the whole team dynamics which differ greatly. Celtic's defensive tactics gave us huge problems. TWICE. Does that mean their defense is anywhere good enough? Will they have it easier to defend against Juventus in the next round?

Besides your argument can be totally flipped: how about Benzema occupying Ferdinand/Evans. Ronaldo sneaking one in. Ronaldo vs Rafael is a total mismatch btw. Di Maria pressuring the shit out of Carrick/Cleverley.

Yes, that can happen. But then again I never said United will win 100 % or that they will keep a clean sheet. I said if United can get their tactics right they can win and their forward line, used properly, isn't inferior to Madrid's. I expect highscoring games à la 3-2 or 4-3.

United did not handle Silva well last season. 6-1, 1-0 both games Silva was very good. United don't handle Mata well either. Muniain last year as well.

In the 1-6 Silva only came to life after United went down to 10 men and committed men forward in the 80 odd minutes after the Fletcher goal gave United false hope so they threw everything forward with 10 men and Silva punished them on the break. Other than that he wasn't anything special.

Muniain I won't even count. As if United cared about the Europa League whereas Athletic played their hearts out to win some silverware. Repeat the tie in the CL this year and Muniain will be invisible and Athletic will get trounced.

 

[footyfan]

I'm wondering, what happens if both teams try to counter each other? I can as easily see United attempting to counter Madrid; they soaked up pressure against City some time ago if I'm not mistaken. And yes, it is saying much. The game is a month away, and Di Maria has been terrible all season. If he's sucked for five months, I don't see why a month will change anything.

I like your lineup ^, although I would prefer Hernandez over Nani. Otherwise, :beer2:.

hmm thanks for reminding me about that. Maybe they'll do the same at the Bernabeu but do they play the same way at OT as well? I am still stuck with the same picture of Man Utd attacking a lot against other teams.

And obviously it is a very close tie and I don't think anyone here is writing off either team too easily. There's no way to actually tell how the games will pan out (Ronaldo could get injured for 6 months). But where's the fun in saying "I think it will be a close game and I'll just leave it at that" ?

 

[footyfan]

This is such a meaningless comparison. United's defensive record in 2009 (champions) and 2011 (champions) was a lot better than Chelsea's in 2012 (6th). United also tend to triumph over Chelsea in head to head ties most of the time. Yet we toyed with United in both 2009 and 2011 but we still can't beat Chelsea. Why? Because "counterattack vs. counterattack" is not the same as "possession vs. counterattack". This isn't just about "crossess". It's the whole team dynamics which differ greatly. Celtic's defensive tactics gave us huge problems. TWICE. Does that mean their defense is anywhere good enough? Will they have it easier to defend against Juventus in the next round?

I get your point but I don't think you're getting mine. Madrid have a manager who can easily turn his good defence into one that can handle a team like Man Utd. If he could find a solution against a team like Barca, it's also very possible that he will find a solution for a less possession based team like Man Utd. I only made that statement in response to this line from you:

There is no way the Madrid defense will handle that attacking lineup.

 

[Barcaman]

No taunting and instigating fights please.

 

[Deco 20]

I was actually defending Rooney

 

[barcanuck]

Real are weak at set pieces, I've lost count how many goals United scores off corners this year.

 

[Jenks]

Looks like United are odds on to get Zaha. Loads of skill, but still very raw. Still, probably an improvement on Young.

 

[Yannick03]

What they actually should be getting is a decent midfielder, I mean Cleverley and Carrick, they both suck. I can't believe how every year United manages to be a topteam with always having an average midfield.