Manchester United

[ajnotkeith]

I got a masters in bro-chology, probably acquired after 3 years of Xavi tutelage.

What I can say about ETH is that he gives off so much arrogance to try and cover his frailties and bad results.

Maybe outside of the spotlight he is reflective and honest of the situation, but the vibe he is giving off, he is just not going to be able to steer this shop. That FA Cup win just delayed the inevitable.

He needs to fake resign, decide to stay, have a press conference about staying and then get sacked basically.

I think he understands that something is badly wrong but doesn't want to cave as he's buying himself time.

The conversation he might not be ready for yet is about Bruno and Rashford, their wider role in the culture of the club and their reliance on those two players to attack. How United have failed time and time again building their team around those two. Great players, but NOT attacking together and NOT for a top team who wants to control the ball, they just don't attack like that. These are two counter focused players and together with a donut like Hojlund for instance their attack is purely long ball and pray.

All the players have changed, and those two have remained constant, still people claim they are amazing players just being let down by the rest.

If United want to advance they need to abandon their entire mentality of trying to rob games on the break, of relying on Bruno or Rashford to make wonder goals on the counter, and need to start buying players in which they can keep the ball and tactically dominate.

Ten Hag tried at the start, but quickly abandoned it when he saw how poor the team was in trying to control games, then he focused his transfers on building a transitional team which was a big mistake. United haven't got transition demons like Mbappe, Vinicius or Haaland to be playing a purely counter focused football.

 

[Maradona37]

Was talking about it with Loki, and said the following to him. Of course they can't be written off, but their identity as a club is their biggest barrier for me - even when Barca and Spain were in their prime United fans looked down on possession football. It's the same problem England had when they tried to fit Gerrard and Lampard into the team, and when they thought those players were better than Xavi and Iniesta because they 'scored more goals'. It's not in United's identity or history as a club or capability as a club to play that style of football. And I think you need to control games these days to win big trophies - football in the 90s was often end-to-end counter attack across Europe, but Pep changed the game back to more possession-oriented:

They can come back, but it will take a long time in my opinion.

Money is a massive factor, obviously. But the point I always make is that their entire ethos as a club is rooted in counter-attacking. How many clubs now are successful playing a purely counter-attacking style of play? Real Madrid, and even then they only do it against other top teams and are much better in and out of possession than United.

My overall thinking is that United are a 90s club and team playing in the 2020s, football has left them behind. Barca are struggling at board level too, but the difference with Barca is they're a modern team on the park or at least have that possession football history (Barca and Pep implemented the current style of pressing, passing and possession). So Barca have the right style and foundations as a team.

But United? Until they sort out their identity and become a team which is really good in possession, rather than a moments team (a massive ask), they will never be able to win the PL or CL for me. Like I say, money is a huge help, but it needs to be spent well and they never do that. You just can't compete being a moments team that gets played off the park in most games and relies on being better in both boxes. It is not sustainable, their midfield and ability to control games is too awful.

I guess you can say they can't keep getting it wrong indefinitely, but would it really be a surprise if they go another 30 years without winning a title? It happened to Liverpool. Sure it is a different era now, but other clubs have lots of money now too and - crucially - a far better football identity.

Of course nobody can write off a club with the resources of United, but they're simply too rotten as a club and have too mediocre a squad for them to turn it around any time soon for me. That's why I think it will take many years.

But I could be wrong. I just don't see much optimism for them.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Was talking about it with Loki, and said the following to him. Of course they can't be written off, but their identity as a club is their biggest barrier for me - even when Barca and Spain were in their prime United fans looked down on possession football. It's the same problem England had when they tried to fit Gerrard and Lampard into the team, and when they thought those players were better than Xavi and Iniesta because they 'scored more goals'. It's not in United's identity or history as a club or capability as a club to play that style of football. And I think you need to control games these days to win big trophies - football in the 90s was often end-to-end counter attack across Europe, but Pep changed the game back to more possession-oriented:

They can come back, but it will take a long time in my opinion.

Money is a massive factor, obviously. But the point I always make is that their entire ethos as a club is rooted in counter-attacking. How many clubs now are successful playing a purely counter-attacking style of play? Real Madrid, and even then they only do it against other top teams and are much better in and out of possession than United.

My overall thinking is that United are a 90s club and team playing in the 2020s, football has left them behind. Barca are struggling at board level too, but the difference with Barca is they're a modern team on the park or at least have that possession football history (Barca and Pep implemented the current style of pressing, passing and possession). So Barca have the right style and foundations as a team.

But United? Until they sort out their identity and become a team which is really good in possession, rather than a moments team (a massive ask), they will never be able to win the PL or CL for me. Like I say, money is a huge help, but it needs to be spent well and they never do that. You just can't compete being a moments team that gets played off the park in most games and relies on being better in both boxes. It is not sustainable, their midfield and ability to control games is too awful.

I guess you can say they can't keep getting it wrong indefinitely, but would it really be a surprise if they go another 30 years without winning a title? It happened to Liverpool. Sure it is a different era now, but other clubs have lots of money now too and - crucially - a far better football identity.

Of course nobody can write off a club with the resources of United, but they're simply too rotten as a club and have too mediocre a squad for them to turn it around any time soon for me. That's why I think it will take many years.

But I could be wrong. I just don't see much optimism for them.

MADRID have the best attackers in the world, that's the key difference, but also as you said, they are perfectly capable of controlling games against worse opposition and generally just better.

But United's transitional ability isn't outstanding, it's not like their attackers are all world-class, so even when they do get lucky it would never be consistent and those players like Rashford can't keep up their production.

If you're going to rely on long ball to counter attack you need reliable and top class forwards.

 

[Maradona37]

The conversation he might not be ready for yet is about Bruno and Rashford, their wider role in the culture of the club and their reliance on those two players to attack. How United have failed time and time again building their team around those two. Great players, but NOT attacking together and NOT for a top team who wants to control the ball, they just don't attack like that. These are two counter focused players and together with a donut like Hojlund for instance their attack is purely long ball and pray.

Other than calling them 'great players' (I think they're both very mediocre, especially Rashy, who'd had one or two good seasons in 8) I totally agree.

I have been saying it for years - these two guys thrive in transitional football and actively prevent United from even trying to play a possession style of football. Sure Bruno will win them some games with a great pass in counter phases - but how many times does he give the ball away and set the opposition up for a counter? After I noticed all this I started seeing threads pop up on Redcafe about it - sure the usual top reds shouted it down, but there's a lot of truth in the claim that these two guys limit is EL football and you'll never win top prizes with either.

I mean Bruno has never ever been in a title race or even a CL QF in his career. He is awful at short game football and is clearly a chaos merchant who treats the ball like a hot potato. I can't for the life of me work out how anyone can watch this guy over 90 minutes and not see what a liability he is in many games.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Other than calling them 'great players' (I think they're both very mediocre, especially Rashy, who'd had one or two good seasons in 8) I totally agree.

I have been saying it for years - these two guys thrive in transitional football and actively prevent United from even trying to play a possession style of football. Sure Bruno will win them some games with a great pass in counter phases - but how many times does he give the ball away and set the opposition up for a counter? After I noticed all this I started seeing threads pop up on Redcafe about it - sure the usual top reds shouted it down, but there's a lot of truth in the claim that these two guys limit is EL football and you'll never win top prizes with either.

I mean Bruno has never ever been in a title race or even a CL QF in his career. He is awful at short game football and is clearly a chaos merchant who treats the ball like a hot potato. I can't for the life of me work out how anyone can watch this guy over 90 minutes and not see what a liability he is in many games.

It depends relative to what. I think they are great players in a general sense, but if you're comparing them to a world level or amongst Arsenal, City, Madrid etc, then they are very average.

Certainly, they are not that good that you can hinge your attack on kicking long to them and praying. That's a more mid table mentality and how small teams play.

In a big team they need to be another player in the 11, to be just another team player, not the ones you rely on at all costs.

 

[Maradona37]

MADRID have the best attackers in the world, that's the key difference, but also as you said, they are perfectly capable of controlling games against worse opposition and generally just better.

But United's transitional ability isn't outstanding, it's not like their attackers are all world-class, so even when they do get lucky it would never be consistent and those players like Rashford can't keep up their production.

If you're going to rely on long ball to counter attack you need reliable and top class forwards.

Very true.

They can maybe play that way if they have an extreme level of attack. But they do not have that and likely will not, given the competition for top players and the preference of top players to go to RM and Barcelona (and better PL teams than United).

Another thing that is overlooked is that young players don't wanna play for United now - kids now have grown up with United being a laughing stock. They don't remember the glory days in the PL. Hence, young players don't see them as the holy grail of football. Even in the 90s the REALLY top players (Ronaldo, Zidane, Ronaldinho etc) never wanted to join United. It's the same now. That leads to players joining them solely for money, and that never works out well.

 

[Maradona37]

It depends relative to what. I think they are great players in a general sense, but if you're comparing them to a world level or amongst Arsenal, City, Madrid etc, then they are very average.

Certainly, they are not that good that you can hinge your attack on kicking long to them and praying. That's a more mid table mentality and how small teams play.

In a big team they need to be another player in the 11, to be just another team player, not the ones you rely on at all costs.

Yeah that is fair enough. They're top players in the sense that competing for a top four is still better than 99 percent of players in the world. But when you compare them to the elite, they've very very average.

The problem United fans have is they're in such a bad state that they have got desperate, and started comparing Fernandes to De Bruyne based on out of context stats, or comparing Rashy to Mbappe (anyone with sense knows Mbappe has always been miles better). They're so desperate for something that expectations are lowered and they call merely decent players 'world class'. I have saw it with dalot - he had a decent season last season, but still made mistakes. He's not too bad a player, one of their better players - but now their fans are going well over the top with bollocks like 'he's the best RB in the PL' etc. They get completely carried away.

I have also noticed that they play favourites on their forums - the renowned posters set a narrative and most less known posters go along with it. Players who it's unpopular to say a bad word against on there are Martinez, Dalot and Diallo. Martinez has clear flaws as a player, Diallo has ability but has proved nothing, and I already covered Dalot.

I mean stats sat Dalot gave the ball away the second-most out of all their players yesterday, I believe. But the narrative on there is he's a brilliant player so of course they're saying he was their best or second-best player yesterday. Whereas if someone like Rashford put in a Dalot level performance yesterday (9as he often does) he gets slagged rotten as he's one of the most disliked players on there these days.

I think football forums - especially that forum - set a narrative on certain players, and then those players become protected or immune to criticism. I mention this because there's a lot on there who keep trying to 'protect' Fernandes with weak arguments, but more and more fans are seeing through it. Hence the fierce debates on there about him in particular.

 

[Maradona37]

Also, Fernandes is a number 10, with none of the abilities a number 10 should possess. He can't dribble, he can't link play, he can't protect the ball, he doesn't take care, he's poor when pressed, terrible on the half-turn, he doesn't just do 'good footballer' things throughout a 90 minutes, keep the play ticking. Every time he gets it he's looking to boost his stats with a Hollywood ball. And regularly gives it away and sets up an opposition attack. His short game and ability to change the tempo is awful.

He's not really a number 10. I bet a lot of their fans would argue he's better than David Silva based on 'goal and assist stats' but when you look at David (or Bernardo for that matter) you see what they add just from the eye test. You have to watch those players to truly appreciate how they make/made Man City function better as a team.

I would argue that - despite his Hollywood balls and accumulation of stats - Fernandes is a big noose around their neck. His new contract is a mistake and they'd be better off building a functional team rather than ceding to his chaos ball style and letting everything go through him.

Like I said, he's a liability to me. And, as cuntish as this sounds, when someone waxes lyrical about him as a player because of his highly contestable 'chances created' stats,, I start thinking they have a superficial way of viewing football.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Also, Fernandes is a number 10, with none of the abilities a number 10 should possess. He can't dribble, he can't link play, he can't protect the ball, he doesn't take care, he's poor when pressed, terrible on the half-turn, he doesn't just do 'good footballer' things throughout a 90 minutes, keep the play ticking. Every time he gets it he's looking to boost his stats with a Hollywood ball. And regularly gives it away and sets up an opposition attack. His short game and ability to change the tempo is awful.

He's not really a number 10. I bet a lot of their fans would argue he's better than David Silva based on 'goal and assist stats' but when you look at David (or Bernardo for that matter) you see what they add just from the eye test. You have to watch those players to truly appreciate how they make/made Man City function better as a team.

I would argue that - despite his Hollywood balls and accumulation of stats - Fernandes is a big noose around their neck. His new contract is a mistake and they'd be better off building a functional team rather than ceding to his chaos ball style and letting everything go through him.

Like I said, he's a liability to me. And, as cuntish as this sounds, when someone waxes lyrical about him as a player because of his highly contestable 'chances created' stats,, I start thinking they have a superficial way of viewing football.

Fernandes is a pick and mix, a lottery, you never know what you'll get when he's on the ball.

For world class players and attacking players more specifically, 99% of the time, you need production AND general play, you need to be effective and efficient whilst also scoring goals and making assists and making all the best decisions.

He is a very 'English' player and I say that because he suits English fans view of the game perfectly generally, people are very obsessed with moments, goals and assists in the EPL, or flashes of quality and nice highlights, but in England the footballing culture is a bit impatient, people don't have a holistic view of the game. We saw this well in the Euros. England have so many moments players that won them games with miracle goals but their all round tactical and technical play was poor, and they were outclassed by a less talented on paper but smarter Spain side.

That said, I do think he can improve to be a more generally consistent footballer and more conservative in his decisions, like some games with Portugal, but he's in a setup where he's praised and lauded for moments of magic every so often and isn't taught better ways or pushed hard enough by his managers. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that's the problem with United, they accept low standards from the players they like, they don't demand constant high level play.

 

[Maradona37]

Fernandes is a pick and mix, a lottery, you never know what you'll get when he's on the ball.

For world class players and attacking players more specifically, 99% of the time, you need production AND general play, you need to be effective and efficient whilst also scoring goals and making assists and making all the best decisions.

He is a very 'English' player and I say that because he suits English fans view of the game perfectly generally, people are very obsessed with moments, goals and assists in the EPL, or flashes of quality and nice highlights, but in England the footballing culture is a bit impatient, people don't have a holistic view of the game. We saw this well in the Euros. England have so many moments players that won them games with miracle goals but their all round tactical and technical play was poor, and they were outclassed by a less talented on paper but smarter Spain side.

That said, I do think he can improve to be a more generally consistent footballer and more conservative in his decisions, like some games with Portugal, but he's in a setup where he's praised and lauded for moments of magic every so often and isn't taught better ways or pushed hard enough by his managers. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that's the problem with United, they accept low standards from the players they like, they don't demand constant high level play.

Yes I agree with all of that, totally the same as stuff I have said over the years, stuff Don on here has said etc.

I would only add the caveat that he only really plays a more settled, controlled game for Portugal in qualifiers against minnows - he reverts to his usual chaos ball in the tournaments, as we saw this summer. He's more or less 30 now so he's set in his ways and not really gonna change as a player, really. It's a bit late for him to change who he is.

But that's also a great point you make that he's (to paraphrase) having his flaws indulged at United because his flawed style of play is endemic there and actively encouraged. Ten Hag wanted to keep McTominay after all so he clearly wants players with limited ability but who can create a moment in the box, whether it's producing a pass out of nowhere or getting in the box for a finish.

That's what Ten Hag wants. But like you implied earlier - I suspect that isn't actually Ten Hag's preferred way of playing - he just knows that the personnel at his disposal have no hope of playing better possession football, they aren't capable of it. So he's likely being pragmatic and pissing with the only cock he has.

But then Ten Hag could have worked (with the new board this year) to target players capable of controlled football over the last three years, and he hasn't. So who the fuck knows what is going on in his mind. Maybe he's as confused by what he wants to do as the rest of us.

I also agree that their fans are far too sentimental and grow attached to players and managers who clearly aren't working out, and it hampers the club in the end. Their fans aren't as ruthless as other clubs' fans. Some think that is a virtue but it can also be argued to be an enemy of progress - settling for players who aren't gonna be successful because they have the odd good game or seem like a likeable character. I have noticed that United fans talk more about character, commitment, professionalism than other clubs. Now these things are very important but United fans treat them as if they're far more important than ability, as if talent is secondary to those things. No.

As one example, some of their fans wanted to keep McTominay - despite being a very limited player - because he is homegrown and he 'got the club', 'aways gave his best'.

For another example, Harry Maguire is professional, always tries his best, despite the Greece thing seems an honest enough lad. But is he good enough? Is he fuck. Yet he still has plenty defenders amongst their fans because he wasn't as abysmal last year as he was in the past (though still nowhere near the standard required). They get too excited when a poor or average player has a good game for a change and start thinking it's the start of a change rather than what it is - a mediocre player having their one good game in 15.

 

[Rassvet]

Predicted them to be poor again at the start of the season, but of course the likes of JamDav deluded himself with his pathetic little sniggers on my posts.

It was so obvious to anyone with sense that they're going nowhere. I could write an essay on how bad they are. A couple of people (Horatio being the other) laughed when I said the issues were still apparent against Fulham, but the last two games have proved it.

These five signings they have made represent AT BEST a slight improvement too. I really don't rate De Ligt, Mazraoui, Zirzkee, Yoro looks a talent but is young and currently injured. Ugarte will be poor for them too, I guarantee it - he's nothing like what they need in defensive midfield. They needed a playmaker - instead they have a clown who flies into tackles, is awful when pressed and can't pass water. If they're pinning their hopes on him and the other players their previous clubs didn't want anymore then they have big problems.

There's two issues for them on the park - the first is the players are nowhere near as good as their fans think, and their fans clearly have the attitude that someone who plays for Man United is automatically better than someone who plays for a 'small club' like Brighton (for the record I would take Mitoma and Joao Pedro over every single attacker Man United have(. it's an archaic way of thinking 'we are a bigger club so we automatically have better players'. No, they are just more hyped by the media.

The second problem they have is that Ten Hag is an absolute moron. I said in summer 2023 that he wouldn't be United coach when 2025 rolls in, and I stand by that. If he is United coact at New Year then this new management structure will clearly be incompetent (that's another thing they were getting giddy about, I am pretty sure this new management structure will prove to be incompetent too, just because they aren't the Glazers doesn't make them any good).

It must be great for their clown fans when they are the best team in July when no football is being played, or when they 'win the transfer window' before any of these players have even kicked a ball for them. They have made the same mistake repeatedly over the years but never ever learn.

The overall problem they have though is that the club is rotten to its core. They have so much arrogance from top to bottom, think the club is special with meaningless platitudes like 'This is Manchester United', as if comments like that will help them improve. If anything the first step to them actually getting better is showing some humility and dropping the arrogance. They've been a nothing club for their entire history other than at two points - under Busby and under Ferguson. This is simply them reverting to the mean.

Unfortunately most forum dwellers ar under 40 and think football started in 1992 so have this misguided impression (due to the 90s) that United are a historically successful club. They aren't. Their European record is embarrassing and 2/3 of their league titles were won under Ferguson.

I could do on but the club is simply doomed, and destined to fail. The rot is too deep. They're still trying to play football like a very basic counter-attack from the 90s and early 2000s. That worked in the PL then, but will never ever work now in the era of greater tactical cohesion.

Their fans are still desperate and clinging to false hope too - I have saw a few of them cling to the fact they had a better xG than Liverpool yesterday, had as many shots, more possession. FFS, about xG - it's clearly only a worthy tool when used over a prolonged period, not in one-off games. And any 'xG model' that says Liverpool should have scored fewer than two goals yesterday is completely broken - Diaz's second goal is a great finish from a low likelihood chance, fair enough, but his first is a free header into an empty net from 5 yards FFS!. Yet apparently he as an individual had an xG of 0.31 yesterday? How?! The only way I can see that not being a sitter is because Szobo was in his way putting him off, but even with that, it would have been criminal had Diaz missed that. Yet I assume xG gives it about 0.2 likelihood of being scored? Bollocks. Then there's Szobo not shooting into an open net, Salah (one of the best players in the world) with a free shot on goal where Onana's positioning was horrendous, and a few other things. Anyone who thinks that xG was an accurate predictor of yesterday's game must be very misguided.

As for the shots and more possession - the latter comes from United generally passing it about at the back. The former is obvious - United got nowhere near Liverpool's goal really until Liverpool had scored and then were 2-0 and 3-0 up. Liverpool had taken their foot off the gas and were toying with United by then.

This is the weakness of stats, especially in football - people throw them about minus CONTEXT. Qualitative data is just as important if not more so than quantitative. Stats are often misused or abused by people, which is why those with no understanding of how to analyse them think yesterday was 'a close game', or that Brighton weren't better than United last week.

Ultimately United are still a shambles and going nowhere. Ten Hag is an absolute clown but it goes far deeper than him - the club is rotten to its core. Like I have been saying for years, it could be decades before they challenge again. Their fans think it will take a few transfer windows - I think they're in for a very rude awakening. And these new players they've very excited about? They'll be the deadwood they are desperate to get rid of in 3 seasons. Then the cycle will repeat.

All these rants just underscore how accurate this banner from United fans remains. Madrid the most successful club on the pitch but Manchester United still the biggest off it.

 

[serghei]

I haven't heard Ten Hag whining week in week out about players he doesn't have and wished could have bought

You realize he got everything he wanted and spent 600m so far?

You're funny I give you that, comparing Barca's situation with United. Biggest spenders vs a team that even struggles to register the one quality player they manage to sign.

 

[Birdy]

You realize he got everything he wanted and spent 600m so far?

You're funny I give you that, comparing Barca's situation with United. Biggest spenders vs a team that even struggles to register the one quality player they manage to sign.

You are funny, because you still pretend Barca's problem is that they can't spend like UTD

Actually, not funny, but a proper clown
You have the nerve to show up here and continue with the same BS, even after Flick has embarrassed your whiny idol in just 4 games

 

[serghei]

You are a disgrace of a poster mate. What can I expect of a so-called Barca fan that thinks the 2011 legendary Barca team would lose against Klopp's Liverpool?

 

[MontenegrinCuler]

All these rants just underscore how accurate this banner from United fans remains. Madrid the most successful club on the pitch but Manchester United still the biggest off it.

That's pretty much what any fanbase thinks of themselves😂😂

The thing is Man U is the only club flexing it now because there is absolutely nothing else to flex, when in reality statistics would show they're way less popular than Barca, Madrid, Bayern possibly even Liverpool.