Manuel Agudo Durán(Nolito)

BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Messi983 said:
Sorry, I don't see this lack of motivation you are constantly talking about. :) One player that I think had the hardest way to motivate himself against smaller opponents was Alves and he's gone. I don't see that in players like Messi, Iniesta, Raki and not to talk about Suarez.
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Suarez is ultramotivated.
Iniesta and Raki are ok.

Messi lost tons of motivation, which is understandable.
Neymar and his motivation for football are questionable since always. And you never know how will he play in the next Month (Godlike or Pedrolike).
Busi won too many trophies and his motivation isn't at the highest level anymore.
Alves, the same.
Pique also isn't at 100% anymore. He is still at very high level for majority of time, but...
Masch's motivation and love for Barca are diminishing also.
Alba isn't at 100% either.

Compare our current team with teams from 2006 or 2009:
2006:
-- Ronaldinho, age 26, 3rd season in a team, first CL
-- Etoo, age 25, 2nd season in a team, first CL
-- Messi, age 19, 34 matches for Barca in his whole career
-- Guily, age 30, 2nd season in a team, first CL
-- Xavi, age 26, first CL
-- Iniesta, age 22, first CL
-- Marquez, age 27, 3rd season in a team, first CL
-- Edmilson, age 30, 2nd season in a team, first CL
etc

2009:
-- Messi, age 22 (lol), 2nd CL
-- Etoo, age 28, 2nd CL
-- Xavi, age 29, 2nd CL
-- Iniesta, age 25, 2nd CL
-- Busi, age 21, 1st Barca's season, first CL
-- Pedro, age 22, 16 matches for Barca in his career
-- Pique, age 22, 1st Barca's season

Now, fast forward to 2016-17's team.
We still have the same core from 2006 and 2009.
-- Messi, aged 30 now, 4 CLs behind him
-- Iniesta, age 33 now, 4 Cls behind him
-- Busi, aged 29 now, 3 Cls behind him
-- Pique, aged 30 now, 3 Cls behind him
-- Mascherano, aged 33, 2 Cls behind him

If you get my point?
Our core is the same more or less from 2006 and 2009 (Xavi-Iniesta-Messi) plus Busi-Pique-Pedro+Alves (gone).
These players are older 11 or 8 years than back then, so they can run much less.
Plus, they won 3-4 Cls in the meantime, plus Spanish players won Euros and Wc.
That's much more trophies around their belts than back in 2006 and 2009...

Look, skills are still there, but motivation is way weaker for majority of our core players.
Plus, they are much older with way weaker pace and stamina.

I mean, look at this video from Chelsea-Barcelona in 2009:

Half of our current team is still in the starting 11 (or they were 1 Month ago):
Pique, Alves, Busi, Iniesta, Messi.

The only "problem" is that they aged 7 years since then (it will be 8 full years in the time of next Season's CL quarters and semis).
Plus, since that match, this is the titles which they won:
Iniesta+Busi+Pique: 6 La Ligas, 3 Cls, Euro 2012, World cup 2010
Messi+Alves: 6 La Ligas, 3 Cls

Do you think that these guys (or any human) can play with the same passion/motivation before and after 10+ major titles?
It doesn't mean that they are crap or that they can't get motivated or still win titles.
But it DOES mean that in some key moments (like CL matches against thugs Atletico) their motivation isn't at 100%, while Atletico plays at 120%, and then our team is always few inches too short in duels, we are too slow for a few miliseconds etc.

So:
1. can our team with this core still win CLs=everything is possible
2. will we experience lots of bad days in key moments of a season or in key minutes of key matches against younger, fresher, more motivated teams=sadly, that is very probable

Also, if Messi was walking on lots of matches this season, do you think that he will suddenly improve now when he will be 1 year older?
Or ageing Iniesta will suddenly run and dribble way more (against younger opponents in CL semis) than in this season?

So, our core won too many trophies and all of them are aged around 30 or older.
Other players who are not core players like Raki aren't too young either.
Suarez is fully motivated.
Neymar is Neymar and his motivation is always questionable.

Umtiti is younger, that is good.
Suarez is a squad player.
Nolito is almost 30 and turtle slow.
And all of our players will be 1 year older till the next summer.


About Messi, he is my favorite sportsmen of all time, but if we want to be honest, do you really see the same level of his devotion, pace, stamina like in early days?

It doesn't mean that he isn't the best.
But in the past he was miles better than everyone.
Today he is the best, but others came closer.
And the gap will be smaller and smaller each new week and month, since Messi is not a robot and he will be 30 soon, and we have already seen his physical decline in the last few years.

Real's Galacticos crumbled after too many trophies and when their board kept the ageing core for too long.
Rijkaard's Barca crumbled also after trophies because of ageing core and players who lost the motivation.
The current core is here since 2009'.
Even in 2014, we were almost dead and gone, but Lucho-effect magically revived this team.
But an inevitable things came this season, and I am fearing that we will be much weaker in the next season than we were this season.

Our squad players are not good enough.
And our first 11 is mostly very old and have won waaaaaay too many trophies.
 
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Messi983

Messi983

Senior Member
I totally understand what you are saying but what should we do? La Masia core (Messi, Iniesta, Busi, Pique) will still be here in 3 or 5 years and they'll probably retire here. Are you suggesting we should sell them because they've won too much? Other important players like Masche, Rakitić and Suarez will be replaced sooner just like Marquez, Eto'o or Pedro were.

I don't believe buying one superstar like Pogba (who most of the people here believe will make or break our future) will really change that much so I'd rather bring in 3-4 young players on our positions of need to push starters and that's what club intends to do according to most rumours. We are not linked to a lot of 30 yo players except from Nolito/Gameiro (I've already said hundred times why I think it wouldn't be bad to have experienced backup for MSN so I won't repeat myself again) so I think Robert is aware we need to rejuvenate our squad. We'll do that with players like Denis and Umtiti. Yes, they are not individually on Pogba's level but they'll bring fresh blood and motivaton to the club. They are young and have potential to be longterm replacements for Masche and Iniesta (at least I see Denis that way but I know I'm in minority). And they'll improve our bench which is our weakness for like forever. I still believe our starting XI (even with Roberto/Vidal replacing Alves) is good enough to win all titles if they are given enough rest and some more internal competition for ther spots.

Now, players like Messi, Busquets and Pique will probably be safe in our best XI for the forseeable future and I'm ok with that as I don't believe they lack motivation as you think. Suarez too as he's our most motivated player and always hungry for goals.

We have two WC GKs to compete, that's great as long as we keep them.

For defense Roberto and Vidal will push each other to be starting RB which is good. Umtiti should at least take over Mathieu's position as first CB backup until end of the season and bring more competition to Masche than Vermaelen or Bartra did. Also good. We are also looking to bring in LB to give some competition to Alba. So I think even with Alves gone the depth and competitivness of our defense should be better overall next season

Midfield: Busquets is unquestionable starter and we'll see who his backup will be. Longterm I believe that will be Samper's role but for next season (if he'll go on loan) we'll have to find some solution with either Roberto or Masche covering up for him when he's unavailable. Could also see Rakitić play DM sometimes. As said above I really believe Denis can be Iniesta's longterm replacement and should play a lot this season when don Andres will rest. Rafinha as well. Yes, we don't really have someone who could totally replace Rakitić in his defensive role (at least from what we've seen so far) but have players to rotate him with to keep him fresh.

Ney is Ney, I agree with that. But keeping him motivated is on Lucho. That's why I think bringing in Nolito who Lucho knows well wouldn't be bad. He could use the "Pique treatment" from start of his first season on Neymar for some games to motivate him if needed. Something that we couldn't do when Munir and Sandro were our only attacking options.

So in general I think our goal for this summer should be to improve overall depth and competitivness of squad and I prefer that approach over buying just one superstar (because be real, we can't afford to buy Pogba and 2-3 other players we need) and hope he'll work out (there is always possibility he wouldn't really fit into our team or would need a season to adapt so his effect wouldn't be immediate). I believe we'll go over the season with the same midfield from last season + Denis and improved depth in defense/attack. Then if needed we can buy WC midfielder next summer if Denis and Rafinha won't show enough potential this season. But I believe they will. And possibly someone of Alena or Kaptoum as well.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Messi983 said:
I totally understand what you are saying but what should we do? La Masia core (Messi, Iniesta, Busi, Pique) will still be here in 3 or 5 years and they'll probably retire here. Are you suggesting we should sell them because they've won too much? Other important players like Masche, Rakitić and Suarez will be replaced sooner just like Marquez, Eto'o or Pedro were.
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No, no.
That would be crazy, I know.

But if we want to have so many core players for so long, and if we accept that it is inevitable to lose some physical skills and motivation over years, then those core, older guys need some fresh, new guys who will neutralize their lack or pace and a lack of motivation.

When Cruijff's team was gone, Van Gaal has built a new team with almost all new players (fresh blood).
He won 2 La Ligas (didn't won a CL), but then his core-team continued in early 2000s and that was our worst era (old players from Van Gaals era without motivation and a hole team was a mess).
Then Rijkaard came and kicked ALL Van Gaal's players, except La Masia kids (but look, KIDS, only): Valdes, Puyol, Oleguer, Xavi, Iniesta, Motta, Gabri, Messi.
Other legends like Luis Enrique were kicked out.
Also, some other team legends were kicked out:
Frank De Boer, 4 seasons here
Reiziger, 7 seasons here
Cocu, 6 seasons and 200+ matches here
Kluivert, 7 seasons here

So, you see, Rijkaard kicked out the whole Van Gaal's core and wanted to start from the beginning.
I am not saying that we should kick the whole core since we are still winning trophies.
But if, for example, we don't win neither La Liga or CL in a next season, that would mean (in my eyes) that the current team (a core) has reached an end and that some core players need to go or get benched also...

Rijkaard's new team won 2 La Ligas and 1 Cl after 14 years of waiting.
And as always, the same as Cruijff's and Van Gaal's team, after a few years on top, our team lost motivation.
Key players Ronnie, Deco and Etoo lost it and we Real won 2 La Ligas.

Then came Pep, and as always, he kicked majority of players from Rijkaard's core, either in his first or 2nd summer here:
Ronaldinho, Deco, Etoo, Gudjohnsen, Edmilson, Ezquerro, Thuram, Oleguer, Zambrotta, Sylvinho
And then even Henry and Marquez after 2 years.

So, with Rijkaard:
-- he kicked ALL foreign older players
-- and kept only Van Gaal's kids in Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Valdes, Gabri, Oleguer etc

Pep:
-- he kicked ALL foreign older key players
-- and kept AGAIN only domestic players or domestic kids in Valdes, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Messi plus promoted some new La Masia kids
Look at our team from Cls final in 2006:
-- Valdes, Gio, Puyol, Marquez, Oleguer/Belletti, Edmilson/Motta, Xavi, Deco/Iniesta, Ronnie, Etoo/Larsson, Guily/Messi
-- out of 16, only Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi survived Pep's first 2 seasons here
-- so, you see, even back then people probably said: keep Ronnie, Deco, Etoo and other guys, you can't sell those legends
But Pep kicked all of them (the same as Van Gaal and Rijkaard in previous cycles) and created a new team

Imo, Pep's team was dead in summer of 2014, and we needed a new rehaul.
We started poor, but then luckily pulled an insane spring of 2015.
But, imo, the same destiny will haunt us and we will face those problems now.

So, let's go back to your question:
-- Messi, we can't sell him. Keep him, of course
-- Iniesta, this could be his final season in a starting 11. So, he is more or less finished either way
-- Alves is gone. That is even ok since we had too many players from that core...
-- if Masch leaves, it won't be the end of the word in my eyes, from the same reason
-- Busi, Pique, they are domestic guys, and all former managers kept domestic guys

So, you see, from this core, imo, we could survive with Messi+Pique+Busi.
But then, we will need lots of new Rakitic's and similar guys.
Either very young or in mid 20s, who are good but who still have lots of motivation.

Arda and Nolito are a big no in my eyes currently, considering these problems from above.

Another problem is La Masia.
We don't have any player current who looks like a starter material.
Denis is currently the biggest hope.
Or someone like Alena.
And those 1-2 young defenders...
That is more or less it for the next 2-3-4 years, it seems.

So, when we rehauled our teams in the past, we kept domestic guys+promoted some world class La Masia kids.
This time it is even harder.
Current domestic guys Iniesta, Pique, Busi (ok, and Alba) are around 30 years old.
And there are NO new La Masia kids.
(And NOT because we aren't giving them chances, but because they are just not good as Puyol, Pique, Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi).

So, we will need to spend literally 200-300-400 Millions in the next 2-3-4 summers to rebuild our team.
We wasted 40m on Arda.
If we do the same now with Nolito :shakeshead:

What is worse, majority of fans don't agree that this team is nearing the end of their cycle.
And even worse, Barto surely doesn't think that.
I believe that he thinks that everything is fine.

About other parts, I agree with majority, except:
Messi983 said:
Midfield: Busquets is unquestionable starter and we'll see who his backup will be. Longterm I believe that will be Samper's role but for next season (if he'll go on loan) we'll have to find some solution with either Roberto or Masche covering up for him when he's unavailable. Could also see Rakitić play DM sometimes. As said above I really believe Denis can be Iniesta's longterm replacement and should play a lot this season when don Andres will rest. Rafinha as well. Yes, we don't really have someone who could totally replace Rakitić in his defensive role (at least from what we've seen so far) but have players to rotate him with to keep him fresh.
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Imo, Samper has some serious confidence problems.
But not the kind of problems which you can solve by: he just need some minutes, he will be fine.
Imo, he looks as scared as fuck to that level that he won't ever be a high level footballer.
Not only Barca's level, but nowhere near top level teams.

Roberto is somewhat the same.
Less scared than Samper, but he lacks in courage department also.
He has skills, but he also seems scared as fuck.
Again, imo, I don't see Roberto as a guy: he'll be better with some playing time... Well, yes, he'll be slightly more confident, but he just naturally lacks that cockiness and courage in his DNA.
For example, Ney has tons of it, and Suarez and Pique, and other guys.
Roberto just has that kind of a personality and I can't see him ever improving in that part.
(The same as if you would ask from Xavi: "Xavi, please be an idiot like Pepe and break people's legs in every match."
Well, Xavi can't do that. He is not that kind of a person.
I am not sure if analogy is perfect, but I hope you get me.
Roberto is some kind of too nice and too shy/afraid footballer, and I just don't see where he will get that courage or balls to be a playmaker in our starting 11).

Rafinha has courage, but he has tons of other problems in his play.
He won't be our starter in the future.

And then, sadly, Denis, even though I don't rate him too highly, he really looks like the hottest prospect currently out of Samper, Roberto, Rafinha and him.
He has courage and cockiness (unlike Samper and Roberto), he has skills.
It remains to be seen how good can he be.
But being the best out of this 4 guys doesn't mean that you are good as Xavi/Iniesta.
It just means that you are the best out of 4 young midfielders where at least 3 of them have serious and almost irreparable flaws.

So, even if Denis turns into a starting 11 material (which is a huuuuge if), we still have tons of problems on lost of other positions.
 
ThwiX

ThwiX

Best midfielder around
Great player, no doubt. Problem is that he will be 30 soon and we will have to pay 18M+taxes. A bit too expensive, IMO. Way better than 40M for freaking Gameiro, tho. Difference is that Nolito can only play on the left wing.
 
DonAK

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
ThwiX said:
Great player, no doubt. Problem is that he will be 30 soon and we will have to pay 18M+taxes. A bit too expensive, IMO. Way better than 40M for freaking Gameiro, tho. Difference is that Nolito can only play on the left wing.
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Celta president already said they're prepared to lose him for his buyout fee. I think they'll accept an offer of 18m and don't make us or any other team pay those taxes on top of it.

El Flaco said:
Nolito also had 2 assists to Morata's goals in the same game.
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One assist. Alba with the other.
 
DonAK

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
The club or Robert wants a #9 it seems, hence the interest in Gameiro and Vietto.

Not a winger like Nolito.
 
khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
DonAK said:
The club or Robert wants a #9 it seems, hence the interest in Gameiro and Vietto.

Not a winger like Nolito.
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And they are right tbh.D.Suarez & Rafinha are capable of doing the job on the wings better than Munir at the 9

ThwiX said:
Great player, no doubt. Problem is that he will be 30 soon and we will have to pay 18M+taxes. /QUOTE]

How many times clubs paid for taxes when paying buyout? It rarely happens and I doubt with the club gr8 network in Spain we would ever have to do so
The selling club has nothing to get from it.they will be just ruining their relation with other clubs and agents which is bad for business.
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