Mavericky Puig

[BBZ8800]

Are you fuciking blind or a fool? He was our most valuable player in numbers of matches. Don't you like meritocracy? It was supposed to be one of RK's principles.

In numbers of matches with:
1. Rakitic on a verge of dying
2. Busquets, his soul died a few years ago
3. Messi, the same
4. Vidal, the same
5. Suarez, the same
6. In a team without a coach or any idea (Setien)
7. In a league after pandemic, without fans, without passion, without fighting spirit, without fouls
8. In a league where we lost the league 5 matches before the end and played without motivation against other teams who had nothing to fight for
= basically irrelevant off season matches in the rank of round of 64 of Cdr or semis of Copa Catalunya.

And in those circumstances, a 20 years old kid in his debut matches showed more passion and will than these washed players?

No shit, Sherlock.

Again, it doesn't say much about Puig except that he has legs and more passion than players who died 5 years ago.

Even you and me would look like gems bedides walking zombies Messi, Raki, Busi and Suarez.

Let me guess, even Dembele, Trincao, Fati look more lively than our zombies?
Does that mean that Dembele is a good player?

 

[serghei]

He showed more than just energy. He should technique, passing ability beyond that of the starters. So, if he has technique, passes better than most starters in midfield (if not all can be argued), and has hunger and energy on his side, the manager should find a place for him in the team. We are not in a position to pass on those qualities, even if he is not clear starter.

Your only argument is his size, which is a weak one except if you're talking about Barca as defending like Atletico. If you sit deep and defend with contact all the time, then yes, Puig is a liability. If you defend with pressing, and deep in the opponent's territory he is not.

 

[serghei]

As far as I'm concerned, if we ask Puig to go on loan to get playing time looking at our solutions in midfield, we're not moving in the right direction. Period. As someone said, if Koeman really thinks that way, then he has only one idea in his head, and if that fails, he's fucked.

And fail it will.

Xavi can't come soon enough... because thinking like this, we're gonna end up like Spanish Everton.

 

[Trafalgar]

La Masia machine broke


Understandable have a nice day

 

[Nello]

Why should Puig be compared with other for academy players that ultimately didn't perform when given chances? Puig played a handful of games towards the end of the season where he impressed more than any of Samper, Halilovic or Ale?a have in the first team. He even did so against one of Europe's best and most physical teams, Atletico.

Instead of guessing if he can be a good enough player for our team, or if his physique will be such a big problem, why don't we just judge him based on his performances for us?

Personally, I think he's done more than good enough to deserve more chances and showed lots of hunger. Unlike many of our other players, who disappoints more than anything these days, but still gets chances becauses they're bigger "stars", more experienced and get better paid. If we want to rebuild the team, start a new cycle and slowly become a better team, why should we keep playing older players who are declining if anything, and have played poorly when it mattered the last few years?

 

[khaled_a_d]

Samper didn't show the same quality when trusted with minutes at Barcelona. Puig did. Same goes for Halilovic.

Academy players that play well when trusted should be kept and played no matter who is manager.

I wrote that in Pjanic thread, but I think here is more appropriate:
The dilemma with Puig is: FDJ
We will build our midfield around Frenkie, as most Barca fans want, and he is the cornerstone of our midfield and may be even the whole Koeman project.
I mean, who benefits the most from 4231? Surely not Messi who was used as RW or False 9, both positions doesn't need 4231, Griezmann too can be argued as someone who will benefit from it.
FDJ has been vocal about how he struggled in the transition from 4231 to 433 here, and both our coach and his top assistant worked closely with him.


Now, FDJ depends a lot on his vertical movement, that is where he excels. He disturbs midfields and defenses with his runs, for that he needs a player who keep his ground and stay put during Frenkie runs.
This means we need someone who isn't playing vertical football too, and preferable this guy can be spoiler to improve our defense, and deep lying playmaker since FDJ isn't the best playmaker either.


Now, is Puig any of those? I really don't think so, some here focus on Puig performance beside Frenke and say he was fine, but this is beside the point. It is about who suits our new golden boy, not the other way around. It is how FDJ will perform beside Puig, not vice versa.
Puig excels with his running more than anything else, he is an energetic midfielder not a deep lying playmaker, not a 10 and surely not a guy who stays put protecting FDJ during his runs.
In other words, Puig is the perfect sub for FDJ, not the best teammate for him.


Now, regarding your point of keeping academy player:
Yes, I agree that Puig earned staying here and fight for a spot, I don't doubt that myself. He looks at least capable of doing what Roberto does in midfield, which is good since Roberto need to focus in being full time RB.
But, for his future? what if FDJ performs well and stays healthy? Will you leave Puig playing 10-20% of available minutes? And let him grow organically within the team like some players before him ,Roberto is the latest example
Or you allow him to get loaned somewhere to grow and play regularly?
I see arguments for both sides, and both are valid. But that doesn't make Koeman decision really that bad IMO, at least if he was honest with his thoughts and wasn't just spouting PC nonsense after the news was leaked.

 

[Nello]

Also have to agree with Serghei, what does it matter if Puig does well or not for a team like Betis? I care more about how valuable a player he can become for our team.

 

[serghei]

I am personally against the idea of us needing to find "savior or hero types" and build a team around them. That shit doesn't stick.

This team needed a proactive approach based on pressing, technical and hard working players to orchestrate the game better, and new fresh forwards with dribbling ability, especially wide.

The main means of achieving that would have been better, more intense training and overall more professional conduct, pure meritocracy when choosing the players, focusing on the talented young players we clearly have.

Puig could have found solid minutes even above the double pivot. Or we could have played 4-1-4-1 vs some sides which is a variant of 4-2-3-1 where one player is more attacking, and not inline in a double pivot. Something Pep played at Bayern with Xabi Alonso.

A great mover and great passer, with a high football IQ is able to provide many things.

 

[Rory]

If Messi is played on the right as he so often is, having a high pressing, energetic cam is ideal right?

 

[BBZ8800]

A player with a physique od Denis Suarez could find minutes at a double pivot?

Ok, enough of internet for this week. See ya.

 

[serghei]

If Messi is played on the right as he so often is, having a high pressing, energetic cam is ideal right?

No matter where Messi plays he needs a player who runs a lot near him because he walks all the time almost off the ball.

A player with a physique od Denis Suarez could find minutes at a double pivot?

Ok, enough of internet for this week. See ya.

If you are referring to my comment, I said ABOVE the double pivot. Basically in Coutinho's role. Especially if Coutinho's work rate or form dips, like it can surely happen.

 

[serghei]

The point is there are options.

For example, the 4-1-4-1, there will be many games where you won't need two holding midfielders, basically a double pivot, since teams will inevitably defend deep. In these matches, it's always a solution to move a player up, and use a single DLP, pivot player, and offer more options forward.

Many times the 4-2-3-1 is altered in this way. Every time where you struggle to break a team and need more movement, a mobile technical passer like Puig would be an asset at finding players and giving the game a bit more speed and rhythm.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I am personally against the idea of us needing to find "savior or hero types" and build a team around them. That shit doesn't stick.

This team needed a proactive approach based on pressing, technical and hard working players to orchestrate the game better, and new fresh forwards with dribbling ability, especially wide.

The main means of achieving that would have been better, more intense training and overall more professional conduct, pure meritocracy when choosing the players, focusing on the talented young players we clearly have.

Football is about the best fit for the whole picture, it isn't about who is good or just who is bad, this is over simplifications. Even the greatest footballers in history wasn't the most complete players. Gerard was probably the most complete player of his generation but there were many superior players to him. It is about how those pieces fit together.
And for that, you need to set priorities, to get the best of the whole team, and yes that will inevitably get some hierarchy in your picking order. Some players in the higher picking order will force their teammates to make sacrifices.
FDJ will be at near top at this hierarchy, whether you like it or not this is how it works. Even in Liverpool with Klopp, Mane and Firmino had to sacrifice a lot of their game when Salah stepped on the pitch, Frimino do it to this day, their whole midfield make many adjustments for their attack too.
Same with RM under Zidane, Benzema made a lot of sacrifice of his game for sake of CR7, Xabi Alonso to a lesser extent did same for Di Maria in 2014. And obviously with Pep all attack had to take 2nd seat for Messi, Ibra, Eto, Villa all did that. That is not hero ball or savior, it is how it works in football and you need to adjust expectations for that. This shit sticks, it has been that way for decades mate. Your ideas are more delusional than an extreme leftist who thinks we can remove the whole unjust in the world and we have this imaginary equality. Whatever gameplan, style we play with, their will always be those hierarchy in football

Now, if we agree in that (I am sure you won't) then Puig is a guy who will inevitably takes a back seat for FDJ, in such case he neither fit with him, and FDJ won't be the player to adjust his game for him, not anymore. Or Puig will have to either adjust his game for FDJ, but most likely this will mean he will get less and less minutes.
That is the reality of the situation, regardless or our ideas or hopes in the team. Yes Puig has a place here, but it is a limited place and the question is better to stay here or have a bigger role?

PS: Xabi Alonso back in his days would have been the perfect partner for FDJ btw, we don't have that. Pjanic is closest thing but he isn't same player.

 

[khaled_a_d]

The point is there are options.

For example, the 4-1-4-1, there will be many games where you won't need two holding midfielders, basically a double pivot, since teams will inevitably defend deep. In these matches, it's always a solution to move a player up, and use a single DLP, pivot player, and offer more options forward.

Many times the 4-2-3-1 is altered in this way. Every time where you struggle to break a team and need more movement, a mobile technical passer like Puig would be an asset at finding players and giving the game a bit more speed and rhythm.

this is our typical 433 with Messi as false 9, but again, this is a game plan that will sacrifice both FDJ & Griezmann for Puig sake. Is Puig worth that?
Another year of FDJ as DM or CM in 433 and he might face the fate of Arthur, that isn't good for anyone tbh

 

[BBZ8800]

If you want to play 4141 in the last 30 minutes, aren't there 1001 more lethal options in terms of scoring goals before using Puig?

1. Cf Suarez + Cams Messi, Cou
2. Cf Suarez + Messi, Griezz
3. Cf Suarez + Cou, Griezz
4. Cf Suarez + Messi, Pjanic
5. Cf Suarez + Cou, Pjanic
6. Cf Suarez + Griezz, Pjanic
7. Cf Messi + Cou, Griezz
8. Cf Messi + Cou, Pjanic
9. Cf Messi + Griezz, Pjanic
10. Cf Braithwaite + Messi, Cou
11. Cf Braith + Messi, Griezz
12. Cf Braith + Cou, Griezz
13. Cf Braith + Messi, Pjanic
14. Cf Braith + Cou, Pjanic
15. Cf Braith + Griezz, Pjanic
16. Cf Griezz + Messi, Cou
17. Cf Griezz + Messi, Pjanic
18. Cf Griezz + Cou, Pjanic
19. Cf Ansu + Messi, Cou
20. Cf Ansu + Messi, Griezz
21. Cf Ansu + Cou, Griezz
22. Cf Ansu + Messi, Pjanic
23. Cf Ansu + Cou, Pjanic
24. Cf Ansu + Griezz, Pjanic

This is all WITHOUT Wijnaldum, Pedri, Alena, Vidal as Cam options in 4141.

So, you literally have 1001 deadlier options than Puig in 4141.