Neymar - v2

[Raed]

The most exciting Barca was the treble year, when Xavi and Iniesta were at the peak of their swag, Messi still had something to prove as part of a team and not in some cock measuring contest with Ronaldo, Alves and Pique just arrived, and Eto'o and Marquez were still around. At that point Pep was innovative without trying to reinvent the wheel, the team had a chip on their shoulder after flopping because the showboating douchebaggery you love turns from entertainment to indulgence when the orchestrator's decide they love hookers more than football.

That team was something else, they played as a team and actually cared about defense.

Your description is actually the problem with relying on individual skill, and it's why I found this Barca as dislikeable as the fat Ronaldinho era, and why, if lucky, the one trophy they will win will be the Copa del Gay.

Ummmm, say what you will about Ronaldinho and Deco, they put you back on the map. And with flair, a lot of it, tons of it and won your second CL title after you sunk into irrelevance. Not to mention, they carried a team of a 1. exiting-to-the-epl-to-win-titles-puyol 2. flapping-seal for a goal keeper 3. decoy-gio 4. handicap-oleguer 5. road-runner-guily 6. Belleti

The treble team was ten times more talented and equipped than the team you choose to ignore, a team that if it were not for them this Barcelona would have never seen the light of day. You could not afford this Barcelona had Ronaldinho not gathered this much support and fans. So yes, I can see why you would say the treble team was the most exciting, because they were onto something unique, which they achieved. The unity they have garnered from belief in success on not too distant and conviction is something I have never seen before.

Yes, Ronaldinho and Deco took a drive on hooker boulevard and never returned, but do you remember the amount of hate Ronaldinho was getting when your team was half injured and half careless? I mean Deco and Ronaldinho were no Xavis, they actually had a life outside football. But it was Ronaldinho who was keeping you in the title race when your defense was leaking more goals than you were comfortable with? The same type of hate Messi was getting on this board during a record breaking season? Ronaldinho carried you with his flair and shocked La Liga with his talent, put you in the CL during a write off season and won the CL and La Liga the next year. Ronaldinho at that point owed you nothing, and with the manager smoking MJ, and Laporta was having massive political orgies he fell of the face of the earth. But remember, when your team was struggling with Chelsea he had you within inches of qualification too, but you just had to give up the fourth goal didn't you?

Sorry, your love for a straight as an arrow attitude is nothing but a reactionary feeling to the amount of youtube warriors out there. Sure talented players with flair tend to go nuts and rotten but you simply cannot convince me that the Ronaldinho era was not the most entertaining and exciting of all. They were not as good or as awesome, or better yet, as effective but they were surely a better spectacle, because the indivisual skill that Ronaldinho brought to the pitch was fun not as serious as Messi's.

There is a reason why your fans get upset and so overwhelmed when Barcelona lose a match, or draw even. Because this team is backed by results, so any hurdle is met with fierce criticism, whereas when the team of Rijkaard fucked up, people still enjoyed the football, it was careless, a lot less perfected and polished but it was free.

 

[Raed]

It's kind of funny hearing this coming from a fan of two teams who can thank all their recent success on Mourinho, a manager who might go down in history as the greatest of all time precisely because he has his players move forward with ruthless efficiency and not individual flair.

But to each their own. For me players who don't pass and do stupid stepovers instead of just running with the ball are boring, the beauty of football comes from players feeding off each other. Could also explain why Argentina and Spain cerca 2008 are far more entertaining for me than Brazil.

Listen, I know that you know that I know all about rotten attitude and too much individual skill, you were there every step of the way through the Galactico era. Having been spoiled by a historical assembly I am not particularly jumping in joy Ronaldo slaves on the pitch and Khedira. Ozil every now and then puts in an exquisite ball in, to none other than the most direct goal machine I have ever seen. There is a reason why I complained about our system during the season in the La Liga forum. Our most exciting players are Di Maria and Marcelo, one over does it and the other has become a psycho. Ozil and Benzema help though, somewhat.

 

[La Furia]

Oh, I'm not going to deny Ronaldinho turned Barca around after being a joke. He was immensely marketable because you could see he was more skilled than anyone around him even if you knew nothing about the game. Of course I get the appeal, it's hard not to. Messi can't do those tricks, even if Messi is a better footballer. On the flip side, that team was hardly poor without him. Puyol and Marquez was quickly becoming the best CB pairing in Europe before injuries destroyed Rafa. And even then it took a questionable goal against Milan and King Henrik Larsson to win the CL. But yes, without Dinho things would have taken a lot longer to get on track.

I never was a huge fan though, because he was a lazy motherfucker and half the time he slowed the game around him because he was more interested in showing off than playing football. He could get away with it because he was so much better than everyone around him; and when he wasn't better than everyone around him he became a cancer, even if he didn't mean to. But Deco I loved. Deco had flair, Deco was also one of the nastiest motherfuckers to ever play the game. Deco did some ridiculous shit and was a turnover machine because he never wanted to keep in simple but he also did whatever it takes to win, not just tricks. I stand by that Deco was the true team MVP in 2006. His magic was played in the game, not beyond it.

But yes, I'll agree with you Ronaldinho and that team saved the club. It was certainly nice to watch. But no, that team was not as nice to watch as the treble winning side. Things have gotten progressively less entertaining since then because the team has been forced to rely more on more on individual skill. Your romanticising the era based on youtube highlights, there was a lot of awful football played during that time. Even during his prime Ronaldinho was often so detached from the game that he did nothing to make those around him better, and so games would be 2 minutes of "holy shit how did he do that" surrounded by 88 of brutal, desperate play to hold on.

Listen, I know that you know that I know all about rotten attitude and too much individual skill, you were there every step of the way through the Galactico era. Having been spoiled by a historical assembly I am not particularly jumping in joy Ronaldo slaves on the pitch and Khedira. Ozil every now and then puts in an exquisite ball in, to none other than the most direct goal machine I have ever seen. There is a reason why I complained about our system during the season in the La Liga forum. Our most exciting players are Di Maria and Marcelo, one over does it and the other has become a psycho. Ozil and Benzema help though, somewhat.

This is what I was looking for.

 

[Maria]

Nope, Pep's achievements cannot be reduced, it is impossible. It is just that much of it was very boring, until a brilliant piece of individual skill comes a long and changes the game. It does not mean your team was not outstanding and beyond reckoning, I was speaking purely on entertainment factor.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this..I would have understood if you would have criticized this team for playing at a slow tempo after they scored, but not for being boring until Messi does something brilliant and decides to finish the match on his on. This has happend, like La Furia says, only this year when it seemed that nobody else beside Messi cares(and if he cared was only because of his stupid competition with Cristiano).
In the last 4 years Barca has played some brilliant matches, especially in Pep's first and third season(they also had special motivation back then in the pasillo they had to do to Rm or in Mourinho). And coincidence or not Barca also had 2 amazing front three in 2008/2009 and 2010/2011: HEM and MVP.
If there's one word that defines Pep's era, that word has to be team-play. And that's why some of us appreciate it more than Rijkaard's Barca. But I can understand that a team with over 70% posession can be boring for someone who's not their fan.

 

[Metaphysical]

10/11 was Pep's finest season. it had the effectiveness and adventure present in 08/09 but with better players, better tactics, and a much more refined system of play. we also had to overcome stronger opponents than in 08/09, yet did so with more consistency and greater performance. it had the drama of an ascension season (like 08/09) but also the power of a statement season. it was an affirmation of our brilliance, confirmation that 08/09 was no fluke. it was the golden seal on our ticket to the pantheon.

The most exciting Barca was the treble year, when Xavi and Iniesta were at the peak of their swag, Messi still had something to prove as part of a team and not in some cock measuring contest with Ronaldo, Alves and Pique just arrived, and Eto'o and Marquez were still around. At that point Pep was innovative without trying to reinvent the wheel, the team had a chip on their shoulder after flopping because the showboating douchebaggery you love turns from entertainment to indulgence when the orchestrator's decide they love hookers more than football.

I can't say I'm surprised at your negative attitude to the absolute magnificence we just spent 4 years watching.

the fact that you can portray Messi scoring SEVENTY and assisting THIRTY as a petty game of one-upsmanship with another player just highlights the utter depth of your cynicism.

I mean trust you to make Pep's Era 1 great year followed by 3 boring ones full of over-indulgence. you can't stand a dominant force, and since this team became one you've grown more and more cold towards it, especially since Rafa got sold.

I know why you do this, though, so I don't hate you for it even if I do want to slap the shit out of you sometimes.**

That team was something else, they played as a team and actually cared about defense.

oh come off it. you saying we haven't comparatively played like a team since then? what the fuck have you been watching? were you asleep for all of the majesty of 10/11? yeah, this season we've relied on Messi for goals to a stupid extent, but that's mostly because no one else on the team can fucking finish (you saw what happened when he tried to play provider against Chelsea and Real; everyone missed everything). it's not like others haven't been getting their chances all season. and frankly, had they taken even half of them we'd have destroyed any current standing goalscoring records and won another Treble.

Messi being prolific in front of goal doesn't mean we've not played as a team. fuck outta here.

as for defence: the treble season was better than 11/12 defensively, for sure, but had none of the excuses present this term (i.e. mass injuries, cancer, and the President selling off the depth) but it's erroneous to imply that was the only Pep team that cared about defence - especially as Pep has repeatedly said we defend with the ball. 09/10 and 10/11 were our most defensively astute years under Pep and they were also Piqué's best two seasons. hardly a coincidence. 08/09 could have been a disaster too had Rafa not turned back the clock and been awesome 'til late Winter/early Spring when Piqué came to life. Puyol's obviously a rock but he can't do shit without a sex machine next to him as we all saw from 06-08, and for a fair amount of this season too (especially in our three-games-from-hell stretch where Piqué only played about 30 minutes).

Your description is actually the problem with relying on individual skill, and it's why I found this Barca as dislikeable as the fat Ronaldinho era, and why, if lucky, the one trophy they will win will be the Copa del Gay.

**like now

good lord, just go support Valencia already!

 

[Raed]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this..I would have understood if you would have criticized this team for playing at a slow tempo after they scored, but not for being boring until Messi does something brilliant and decides to finish the match on his on. This has happend, like La Furia says, only this year when it seemed that nobody else beside Messi cares(and if he cared was only because of his stupid competition with Cristiano).
In the last 4 years Barca has played some brilliant matches, especially in Pep's first and third season(they also had special motivation back then in the pasillo they had to do to Rm or in Mourinho). And coincidence or not Barca also had 2 amazing front three in 2008/2009 and 2010/2011: HEM and MVP.
If there's one word that defines Pep's era, that word has to be team-play. And that's why some of us appreciate it more than Rijkaard's Barca. But I can understand that a team with over 70% posession can be boring for someone who's not their fan.

There is a slight exaggeration to what I said though, if I didn't it would be a boring discussion. I mean, Xavi and Iniest are wicked good, one is a maestro and the other is an illusionist. I do however like Iniesta more because indivisually he is just that much better and entertained, unrestricted while the former is a hinged to an idea that he repeats so well. And it is in that attachment to a philosophy, that Xavi and with it the entire team has become more and more absorbed into their ideals, elevating Pep's methods to the heavens but it wasn't free.

I am a man of tactics myself, so seeing Pep make chess like moves at every start of the match (because in a way, he is a bit poor with his subs) and with every season was phenomenal, especially that he has combined the best of Italy with the best of your hybrid philosophy. But it is structured, so structured that it becomes just tiresome. Of course a lot of it had to do with you not compromising a single title.

It took ONE season, just ONE season where Pep failed and the reactions on here chased half of us away and that was on the back of 3 years of absolute dominance. Not to mention Messi did bag 72 goals in the very same season, lol, like that numbers makes any sense. Because you knew, that without the flair of an attacking player your game was overwhelming.

There is a reason why Spain of 2008 was a lot more enjoyable than Spain of 2010 and when La Furia mentions Brasil I find it ironic that he mentions a team that was far away from any joyful memory of Brasil. A team that belonged to the likes of Melo, Fabiano, EPL corrupted Ramires, Elano, and some horrible, horrible players.

With all that said, I am not talking about a wanna be skilled player, we are talking about a good player waiting to be coached into a spectacular, unique player. Not a Quaresma.

 

[Metaphysical]

There is a reason why your fans get upset and so overwhelmed when Barcelona lose a match, or draw even. Because this team is backed by results, so any hurdle is met with fierce criticism, whereas when the team of Rijkaard fucked up, people still enjoyed the football, it was careless, a lot less perfected and polished but it was free.

results aren't everything.

Pep knows this. and so do a lot of sensible Culés.

the hysterical folk who obsess over results are the kind of people that don't really understand the club anyway. they are Barça fans by chance, almost. they could have fallen for any other team if their situation had changed just a bit. they don't "get it."

yes, we like to win. yes, we want to win. but the important thing is to stay true to our way of playing. to not compromise on that integrity to always play the game that way; to entertain (there are other teams with this mindset as well, but we're discussing Barça right now). we are not Mourinhoists or Fergusonites; the brilliance of our football is not predicated on results or on trophies. Laporta and Txiki understood this, which is why they went for Guardiola over Mourinho in the summer of 2008.

 

[Ender]

10/11 was Pep's finest season. it had the effectiveness and adventure present in 08/09 but with better players, better tactics, and a much more refined system of play. we also had to overcome stronger opponents than in 08/09, yet did so with more consistency and greater performance. it had the drama of an ascension season (like 08/09) but also the power of a statement season. it was an affirmation of our brilliance, confirmation that 08/09 was no fluke. it was the golden seal on our ticket to the pantheon.



I can't say I'm surprised at your negative attitude to the absolute magnificence we just spent 4 years watching.

the fact that you can portray Messi scoring SEVENTY and assisting THIRTY as a petty game of one-upsmanship with another player just highlights the utter depth of your cynicism.

I mean trust you to make Pep's Era 1 great year followed by 3 boring ones full of over-indulgence. you can't stand a dominant force, and since this team became one you've grown more and more cold towards it, especially since Rafa got sold.

I know why you do this, though, so I don't hate you for it even if I do want to slap the shit out of you sometimes.**



oh come off it. you saying we haven't comparatively played like a team since then? what the fuck have you been watching? were you asleep for all of the majesty of 10/11? yeah, this season we've relied on Messi for goals to a stupid extent, but that's mostly because no one else on the team can fucking finish (you saw what happened when he tried to play provider against Chelsea and Real; everyone missed everything). it's not like others haven't been getting their chances all season. and frankly, had they taken even half of them we'd have destroyed any current standing goalscoring records and won another Treble.

Messi being prolific in front of goal doesn't mean we've not played as a team. fuck outta here.

as for defence: the treble season was better than 11/12 defensively, for sure, but had none of the excuses present this term (i.e. mass injuries, cancer, and the President selling off the depth) but it's erroneous to imply that was the only Pep team that cared about defence - especially as Pep has repeatedly said we defend with the ball. 09/10 and 10/11 were our most defensively astute years under Pep and they were also Piqué's best two seasons. hardly a coincidence. 08/09 could have been a disaster too had Rafa not turned back the clock and been awesome 'til late Winter/early Spring when Piqué came to life. Puyol's obviously a rock but he can't do shit without a sex machine next to him as we all saw from 06-08, and for a fair amount of this season too (especially in our three-games-from-hell stretch where Piqué only played about 30 minutes).



**like now

good lord, just go support Valencia already!

 

[UEFA_Barça_Chris]

results aren't everything.

Pep knows this. and so do a lot of sensible Culés.

the hysterical folk who obsess over results are the kind of people that don't really understand the club anyway. they are Barça fans by chance, almost. they could have fallen for any other team if their situation had changed just a bit. they don't "get it."

yes, we like to win. yes, we want to win. but the important thing is to stay true to our way of playing. to not compromise on that integrity to always play the game that way; to entertain (there are other teams with this mindset as well, but we're discussing Barça right now). we are not Mourinhoists or Fergusonites; the brilliance of our football is not predicated on results or on trophies. Laporta and Txiki understood this, which is why they went for Guardiola over Mourinho in the summer of 2008.

+1

 

[Raed]

results aren't everything.

Pep knows this. and so do a lot of sensible Culés.

the hysterical folk who obsess over results are the kind of people that don't really understand the club anyway. they are Barça fans by chance, almost. they could have fallen for any other team if their situation had changed just a bit. they don't "get it."

yes, we like to win. yes, we want to win. but the important thing is to stay true to our way of playing. to not compromise on that integrity to always play the game that way; to entertain (there are other teams with this mindset as well, but we're discussing Barça right now). we are not Mourinhoists or Fergusonites; the brilliance of our football is not predicated on results or on trophies. Laporta and Txiki understood this, which is why they went for Guardiola over Mourinho in the summer of 2008.

You are confusing two points here, just to defend Pep. Who I never doubted for one second, but exaggerated my point just to highlight it. I am saying, beyond the results or despite the results, there was a certain element of flair found in the Rijkaard era not found in Pep's teams. That is my point. Which were the better teams? Pep's. Year for year.

There is also no doubt your club stuck to its principles, management wise that is. Except your fans chased away their best manager ever, them a long with Mourinho and Fabregas. Or he did the right thing and fucked off on a high.

 

[La Furia]

10/11 was Pep's finest season. it had the effectiveness and adventure present in 08/09 but with better players, better tactics, and a much more refined system of play. we also had to overcome stronger opponents than in 08/09, yet did so with more consistency and greater performance. it had the drama of an ascension season (like 08/09) but also the power of a statement season. it was an affirmation of our brilliance, confirmation that 08/09 was no fluke. it was the golden seal on our ticket to the pantheon.



I can't say I'm surprised at your negative attitude to the absolute magnificence we just spent 4 years watching.

the fact that you can portray Messi scoring SEVENTY and assisting THIRTY as a petty game of one-upsmanship with another player just highlights the utter depth of your cynicism.

I mean trust you to make Pep's Era 1 great year followed by 3 boring ones full of over-indulgence. you can't stand a dominant force, and since this team became one you've grown more and more cold towards it, especially since Rafa got sold.

I know why you do this, though, so I don't hate you for it even if I do want to slap the shit out of you sometimes.**



oh come off it. you saying we haven't comparatively played like a team since then? what the fuck have you been watching? were you asleep for all of the majesty of 10/11? yeah, this season we've relied on Messi for goals to a stupid extent, but that's mostly because no one else on the team can fucking finish (you saw what happened when he tried to play provider against Chelsea and Real; everyone missed everything). it's not like others haven't been getting their chances all season. and frankly, had they taken even half of them we'd have destroyed any current standing goalscoring records and won another Treble.

Messi being prolific in front of goal doesn't mean we've not played as a team. fuck outta here.

as for defence: the treble season was better than 11/12 defensively, for sure, but had none of the excuses present this term (i.e. mass injuries, cancer, and the President selling off the depth) but it's erroneous to imply that was the only Pep team that cared about defence - especially as Pep has repeatedly said we defend with the ball. 09/10 and 10/11 were our most defensively astute years under Pep and they were also Piqué's best two seasons. hardly a coincidence. 08/09 could have been a disaster too had Rafa not turned back the clock and been awesome 'til late Winter/early Spring when Piqué came to life. Puyol's obviously a rock but he can't do shit without a sex machine next to him as we all saw from 06-08, and for a fair amount of this season too (especially in our three-games-from-hell stretch where Piqué only played about 30 minutes).

Woah there. You are exaggerating my claims except about this past season, which I didn't enjoy at all for a variety of reasons (some personal, some because of what I saw). I said the team got progressively more overconfident and individualistic but it was still fucking magnificent, Barcelona was the best team in Europe by a considerable margin so forgive me for getting cynical about it over time, but no, there's not that much bad I'd say about 3/4ths of the Pep era. Yes the Ibra experiment was a failure, but even on this forum where I like to disrupt the love-fest just to be a dick, I defended it against the angry hordes of Eto'o and Yaya fanboys. And this is coming from someone who loved Eto'o and Yaya.

I also understand what you mean about 10/11. Personally I disagree, I thought the team was more hungry and better balanced against better quality opposition in 08/09, but a lot comes from our respective biases in football philosophy. The lack of defensive depth last year bent without breaking the team though, and it was clear we were one bad break away from this year's issues, so yeah I think there has been issues accumulating over time. And yes I think there has been a lack of team chemistry this year, it's no coincidence that this was Xavi's worse season since before the Euros.

But I never said last year was boring, no way. Being less entertaining than the most entertaining team in my lifetime ain't boring.

PS: I could never associate myself with a fanbase that loves Rafa Benitez. I might as well be a Liverpool fan at that rate. It's bad enough he's being linked to Fiorentina, that shit is making me nervous.

 

[Metaphysical]

You are confusing two points here, just to defend Pep. Who I never doubted for one second, but exaggerated my point just to highlight it. I am saying, beyond the results or despite the results, there was a certain element of flair found in the Rijkaard era not found in Pep's teams. That is my point. Which were the better teams? Pep's. Year for year.

while I think the flair-levels in Pep's teams are often underrated, Ronaldinho out-flairs everyone, so I can't argue with that.

apologies for the misunderstanding.

There is also no doubt your club stuck to its principles, management wise that is. Except your fans chased away their best manager ever, them a long with Mourinho and Fabregas. Or he did the right thing and fucked off on a high.

Pep was never going to last. I thought his year-long contracts were just power-plays but I see now that he was being brutally honest in his statements about why he only signs short-term deals. no one chased Pep away, he left because he wanted to.

no doubt Mourinho hastened the process, though, poisoning the atmosphere between the two clubs, constantly insulting Guardiola and belittling him. remember these guys were friends, and Pep's always had a "leave it on the pitch" approach to rivalry (he's friends with Raul & Figo ffs) so this kind of backbiting & animosity must have been such a drain on him. without Mourinho around he probably would have gone for another year, perhaps.

being objective, though, it's best he leave now. if he leaves on a "high" (like after a CL win) the team is full of confidence which will quite quickly turn into hubris as they question the ways of a new manager. by leaving after a "low" Pep ensures the players will be ready to give 100% for the new manager, as they once more have something to prove.

 

[La Furia]

Pep picked a good time to leave indeed, all the better when he returns in 10 years.

 

[UEFA_Barça_Chris]

Pep picked a good time to leave indeed, all the better when he returns in 10 years.

No, isn't it obvious he will coach Qatar in the world cup 2022?

 

[Metaphysical]

Woah there. You are exaggerating my claims except about this past season, which I didn't enjoy at all for a variety of reasons (some personal, some because of what I saw). I said the team got progressively more overconfident and individualistic but it was still fucking magnificent, Barcelona was the best team in Europe by a considerable margin so forgive me for getting cynical about it over time, but no, there's not that much bad I'd say about 3/4ths of the Pep era. Yes the Ibra experiment was a failure, but even on this forum where I like to disrupt the love-fest just to be a dick, I defended it against the angry hordes of Eto'o and Yaya fanboys. And this is coming from someone who loved Eto'o and Yaya.

But I never said last year was boring, no way. Being less entertaining than the most entertaining team in my lifetime ain't boring.

I know.

I just had to get you to say it.

I also understand what you mean about 10/11. Personally I disagree, I thought the team was more hungry and better balanced against better quality opposition in 08/09, but a lot comes from our respective biases in football philosophy. The lack of defensive depth last year bent without breaking the team though, and it was clear we were one bad break away from this year's issues, so yeah I think there has been issues accumulating over time.

it's all down to Piqué's injury problems. the numbers were much the same. in both years Bilal has been blighted with sickness in the Spring, and in both years we had a key CB miss a large part of the run-in through injury. the difference is that in 10/11 it was Puyol, and in 11/12 it was Piqué. we can cope without Capi (thanks to Badger). we can't cope without Piqué.

And yes I think there has been a lack of team chemistry this year, it's no coincidence that this was Xavi's worse season since before the Euros.

it's been Xavi's worst season because he's physically getting more and more broken down. and hilariously enough having the summer off had a negative effect on his conditioning and he came back in worse shape than usual.

he's been having injections in his knee in order to play pretty much all season, I do believe. he's closer to the end than we all think, IMO. that knee is just going to get worse and worse. there's a big injury on the horizon, I fear.

PS: I could never associate myself with a fanbase that loves Rafa Benitez. I might as well be a Liverpool fan at that rate. It's bad enough he's being linked to Fiorentina, that shit is making me nervous.

it's funny that you hate Benitez but love Emery, when Emery is just a young Benitez. though I guess Unai doesn't seem to love himself like Rafa does.