Paul Pogba

[BBZ8800]

Tell him! Tell him!
How does he expect neymar to be both creative and a goalscorer if every ball goes through messi and the rest are called upon to receive his throughballs/key passess?

Guys, you are missing the point.

In posts from DonAndres you can read how Pogba plays more for himself than for a team.
I tried to say something in a similar tone.

It's not that Neymar doesn't score/assist enough. It is that sometimes, instead of playing a simple pass, he tries to do something spectacular and then he loses the ball. And if he tried a simple (and less spectacular move), our team wouldn't lose the ball.

Anyway, Ney is improving in that area. But he isn't a developed player yet in that area.

A few examples of these actions when he tried unnecessary clownish moves instead of playing a simple (and yet efficient) pass for a teammate:

-- at 2:02 in this video
-- at 2:20 in this video. A teammate on his left was unmarked, but he tries a totally unnecessary clownish move against 3 defenders
-- a penalty kick at 4:26 is also a similar, unneeded clownish (and not efficient for a team) move

Again, Ney is improving. He used to do a lot more of these unneeded tricks in Brasil, he is better now, but he still has a lot of room for improvement in efficiency in everything.
And again, I am not talking about how many Goals or assists he had.

Pogba has some similar issues, plus as other users said, he plays more for "himself" than for a team. He roams around the field, does what he wants etc.
And again, when he isn't on the field, you don't miss him in midfield. You only get another player who does less fancy tricks.

He is currently more fun to watch than he actually contributes to his team's midfield.

Neymar contributes much more than Pogba, but even Ney can improve and be "a more robot-like" like Messi or Cristiano, and less a playful kid who attempts too many unneeded tricks and slows down the game.

 

[DrPepper]

Some numbers for goals. Might look for assists and dribbling stats tomorrow as well.

This season,

Neymar Total Shots: 48 (3,6 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 97 (5,0 per 90 mins)
Ronaldo Total Shots: 108 (6,1 per 90 mins)
Bale Total Shots: 57 (3,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 3,43 (85,5 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 4,62 (83,6 min per goal)
Ronaldo Shots per Goal: 3,86 (57,2 min per goal)
Bale Shots per Goal: 5,70 (138,3 min per goal)

I know Messi takes direct free kicks which have a very low percentage success rate, but still, Neymar has the fewest attempts on goal to score 1 goal compared to the other big players. His decision making might not be as good as Messi's, but I'd say it's at least as good as Ronaldo's (who I think often makes bad decisions) or even better. Neymar's end product, though, has improved massively compared to last year.

So compared to last season,

Neymar Total Shots: 68 (3,5 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 160 (5,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 7,50 (194,8 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 5,71 (89,9 min per goal)

Therefore, I think his efficiency is already at (or near) world class level. He has basically the same amount of shots per goal but has doubled his goal tally. And considering he's only 22 it could get even better in a few years.


But this thread is about Pogba anyway.

About him, I'm not really sure what he is about. People tend to hype him because of his skills, but what type of player is he really? The few times I've seen him I thought he was a box-to-box midfielder who is good at a lot of things but not brilliant at anything, except maybe long range shooting - which is alongside flashy dribbling skills the best way to create hype about a player.

He might be a good player for Barca, but as people said before, I'd rather have someone like Gündogan, Verratti, Kovacic etc who are the type of player we really need, provided we want to keep a passing midfield rather than a more dynamic and athletic midfield. Even then, I'd rather see Vidal here instead of Pogba.

 

[NeyMesSis]

Some numbers for goals. Might look for assists and dribbling stats tomorrow as well.

This season,

Neymar Total Shots: 48 (3,6 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 97 (5,0 per 90 mins)
Ronaldo Total Shots: 108 (6,1 per 90 mins)
Bale Total Shots: 57 (3,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 3,43 (85,5 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 4,62 (83,6 min per goal)
Ronaldo Shots per Goal: 3,86 (57,2 min per goal)
Bale Shots per Goal: 5,70 (138,3 min per goal)

I know Messi takes direct free kicks which have a very low percentage success rate, but still, Neymar has the fewest attempts on goal to score 1 goal compared to the other big players. His decision making might not be as good as Messi's, but I'd say it's at least as good as Ronaldo's (who I think often makes bad decisions) or even better. Neymar's end product, though, has improved massively compared to last year.

So compared to last season,

Neymar Total Shots: 68 (3,5 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 160 (5,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 7,50 (194,8 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 5,71 (89,9 min per goal)

Therefore, I think his efficiency is already at (or near) world class level. He has basically the same amount of shots per goal but has doubled his goal tally. And considering he's only 22 it could get even better in a few years.


But this thread is about Pogba anyway.

About him, I'm not really sure what he is about. People tend to hype him because of his skills, but what type of player is he really? The few times I've seen him I thought he was a box-to-box midfielder who is good at a lot of things but not brilliant at anything, except maybe long range shooting - which is alongside flashy dribbling skills the best way to create hype about a player.

He might be a good player for Barca, but as people said before, I'd rather have someone like Gündogan, Verratti, Kovacic etc who are the type of player we really need, provided we want to keep a passing midfield rather than a more dynamic and athletic midfield. Even then, I'd rather see Vidal here instead of Pogba.

are you kidding?

 

[Neymessi]

Players adapt.Neymar adapted.Pogba will adapt too.Tactics could be moulded for him to fit.He is 21.Chances are that he will be absolute world class.If he could come for a not so shitload amount then I really don't want this adaption thing to come between barca and pogba.Have we after so many years found a perfect xavi replacement?

 

[Luftstalag14]

Some numbers for goals. Might look for assists and dribbling stats tomorrow as well.

This season,

Neymar Total Shots: 48 (3,6 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 97 (5,0 per 90 mins)
Ronaldo Total Shots: 108 (6,1 per 90 mins)
Bale Total Shots: 57 (3,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 3,43 (85,5 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 4,62 (83,6 min per goal)
Ronaldo Shots per Goal: 3,86 (57,2 min per goal)
Bale Shots per Goal: 5,70 (138,3 min per goal)

I know Messi takes direct free kicks which have a very low percentage success rate, but still, Neymar has the fewest attempts on goal to score 1 goal compared to the other big players. His decision making might not be as good as Messi's, but I'd say it's at least as good as Ronaldo's (who I think often makes bad decisions) or even better. Neymar's end product, though, has improved massively compared to last year.

So compared to last season,

Neymar Total Shots: 68 (3,5 per 90 mins)
Messi Total Shots: 160 (5,7 per 90 mins)

Neymar Shots per Goal: 7,50 (194,8 min per goal)
Messi Shots per Goal: 5,71 (89,9 min per goal)

Therefore, I think his efficiency is already at (or near) world class level. He has basically the same amount of shots per goal but has doubled his goal tally. And considering he's only 22 it could get even better in a few years.


But this thread is about Pogba anyway.

About him, I'm not really sure what he is about. People tend to hype him because of his skills, but what type of player is he really? The few times I've seen him I thought he was a box-to-box midfielder who is good at a lot of things but not brilliant at anything, except maybe long range shooting - which is alongside flashy dribbling skills the best way to create hype about a player.

He might be a good player for Barca, but as people said before, I'd rather have someone like Gündogan, Verratti, Kovacic etc who are the type of player we really need, provided we want to keep a passing midfield rather than a more dynamic and athletic midfield. Even then, I'd rather see Vidal here instead of Pogba.

 

[Sumlit]

It's not that he can't adapt, it's just that getting Pogba would quite literally be taking the polar opposite of the "path of least resistance". We'd be busting our asses massively over a year from now to pay something akin to 100m for a hyped midfield talent so that Lucho can teach him to be something completely different than a showy player whose entire game revolves around feeding off of the service of his team to be an individual instead of serving others himself. Pogba has the fundamental skillset that is characteristic of a world class prospect but almost all of his momentum is built off of him playing with total positional freedom to serve his own attacking instincts and whims. Of course, he's young and talented enough to change and develop into what we want to "mould" him into but it's a pretty damn different profile than what he's grown up to enjoy playing and be successful at. All of that effort on one player knowing that he has a primadonna attitude and could very well cause issues in the next years with coach disagreements, wage/contract demands, journeyman nature, etc. which could lead to his departure. There's no way I want to break transfer records to bring someone like him here.

It's a much more complicated task than what it's worth when someone like Gundogan is a natural at the desired "mould", matches him in talent (though not in hype), and has all the hallmarks of the *perfect* investment. Seriously think about it: Dortmund are at their absolute worst state as a club and are in a position of very little negotiation power or appeal. Gundogan massively decreased his international demand with his injury and through the fact that most top clubs are secure in midfield. Now he's relatively fit and only suffers from the same over-worked injury struggles as the rest of BVB. He's still only 24 years old and retains all the talent that he had before, only that he's not in the limelight right now. If he were to come he'd be playing in a team that suits his strengths, away from the over-intensity that crippled him, and would only require some temporary special attention for fitness and integration to get him back to his best level. The time to capitalize on an opportunity like this is NOW. Seal a pre-deal (Nerman style) for the 2016 winter transfer window ASAP so that we take full advantage of this situation that drives his price down and facilitates a transfer. He won't even be cup-tied ffs!!

Though I'm a fool for expecting this to be realistic. We're sitting here with no sporting director whatsoever, let alone an intelligent one with an eye for a good deal. On top of that, our board is in shambles and is spearheaded by an imbecile who can't pay attention to our very own youth system or management because he's too busy focusing on elections that he won't win. The other candidates (Laporta, Benedito, etc.) will also be too focused on the elections to think about the most necessary transfer after the ban and if, by some instance, we do wake up to the golden opportunity of Ilkay Gundogan, it'll probably be in July or later by which time he'll already have signed for someone else. A club like Arsenal, Bayern, City, etc. who either actually need him or recognize him as a profitable asset for the team.

Damn DonAndres, keep it short, it's Sunday

I understand your point, and I certainly neither want to spend anywhere near €100m for Pogba nor am I thrilled to have Lucho be the one to guide him, but I don't think he needs that much one on one guidance aside from the experience he'll get playing on the this team with these players. He'll mold his game naturally. It might take him some time, but where there is talent, you have room for improvement, learning and adapting. Pogba is a massively talented young player, and unless there is a deficiency in both will and determination to improve, and/or intelligence to absorb and adapt his play, I don't see why he cannot integrate and adapt his game to Barca.

I also understand your point on Gundogan, and understand and share the preference over someone like Pogba, but Gundogan is still a question mark with his injury and he has not shown a quick recovery after coming back. I still want to see more from him before Barca commits any kind of money and time on him.

I do want Verratti regardless of Pogba or Gundogan though.

 

[DrPepper]

are you kidding?

Nah, why?

 

[el chilenito]

Honest question who do you think will be a better fit for barca? Arturo vidal or pogba? Personally I think pogba playstyle would suit more at real madrid, pogba is a world class player with amazing technical skills who can win you games but not really a player who makes the other players around him stronger, he is a more individualistic player. Vidal on the other hand I think will suit barca more, his passing is adequete, knows how to hold onto the ball and stregthens the midfield with his physicality and try to control the midfield with dominate posession and extreme workrate hounding every loose ball and putting pressure on the opposition, execelent interceptor, not to mention he can pop up wuth a goal or two. Both very different in their style of play, both amazing box to box midfielder. Your opinion.

 

[KingMessi]

I would rather have Pogba than Vidal. They're both on a similar level (IMO since Vidal's knee issues last season), but Pogba is 21 whereas Vidal is 27. However, for the 100M that Juve are quoting for Pogba, we could get both Koke (60M) and Gundogan (~40M).

A Pogba-Koke midfield, with Pogba taking on Iniesta's roles and Koke taking on Xavi's would really be something. It'll never happen though. Far too expensive.

 

[DonAK]

Honest question who do you think will be a better fit for barca? Arturo vidal or pogba? Personally I think pogba playstyle would suit more at real madrid, pogba is a world class player with amazing technical skills who can win you games but not really a player who makes the other players around him stronger, he is a more individualistic player. Vidal on the other hand I think will suit barca more, his passing is adequete, knows how to hold onto the ball and stregthens the midfield with his physicality and try to control the midfield with dominate posession and extreme workrate hounding every loose ball and putting pressure on the opposition, execelent interceptor, not to mention he can pop up wuth a goal or two. Both very different in their style of play, both amazing box to box midfielder. Your opinion.

How is Vidal doing for Juve this season?

The thing about Pogba is that he is still a work in progress and a long-term prospect.

 

[KingMessi]

According to whoscored, Vidal seems to be doing well this season. But that's hardly a definitive picture.

 

[DonAK]

For whoscored you could be shit the entire match and then score a penalty and get an 8 rating.

 

[el chilenito]

Vidal is doing good, 6 goals and 2 assists in 16 serie A app this season, he is not to his unbelievably high best but I think thats due to his lingering knee problem from most of last year. Pogba has age on his side and also way more marketable but he still very immature at times sort of like the same attitude that thiago had, no denying classiness but sometimes can get too complacent in matches, tries to do too much casually. . Vidal Is more of a never say die attitude will try to give you his best even when injured, like puyol mentality. Pogba will be more expensive, I dont think we can buy him for less than 90 million, vidal I think we can get around 55 million, at least before the copa america which will surely drive his price up.

 

[DonAK]

Vidal is doing good, 6 goals and 2 assists in 16 serie A app this season, he is not to his unbelievably high best but I think thats due to his lingering knee problem from most of last year. Pogba has age on his side and also way more marketable but he still very immature at times sort of like the same attitude that thiago had, no denying classiness but sometimes can get too complacent in matches, tries to do too much casually. . Vidal Is more of a never say die attitude will try to give you his best even when injured, like puyol mentality. Pogba will be more expensive, I dont think we can buy him for less than 90 million, vidal I think we can get around 55 million, at least before the copa america which will surely drive his price up.

His knee problem is worrying.

And we cannot buy before January 2016 anyway. We can seal a deal for him, but I doubt Juventus would agree to something like that.

 

[Sumlit]

Vidal will be 29 by the time Barca can sign him, so no thank you.