Paul Pogba

[DonAndres]

I'm not too keen on him as a player for Barca. He makes good attacking runs and has a wicked shot but he doesn't play like he has any real responsibility in midfield. Most of his general play consists of him making attacking runs or movements to find himself isolated in 1v1's or shooting. He's not really facilitating things for his teammates or helping the team play fluid football with his sheer presence the way most good CM's do. If he's playing, he provides extra skill and a goalscoring threat that's great to watch and can decide a game. If not, I don't think a team would suffer tactically without his presence. He plays more for himself than actually having a role significant to the way a team plays. His "consistency" depends largely on how hot his goalscoring/attacking form is, if he can't provide that then he's not providing anything really for the team unlike other players who, even when not in impressive form, are crucial.

That being said, he wouldn't actually struggle to play at Barca or be a bad player for us. His skillset as a supporting/attacking midfielder in his prime would gel more for us than the likes of Rakitic who is decent himself despite not being world class. I just think that, for the price tag he commands, there's no way he should be our primary focus on the future of our midfield. I've heard numbers like 100m being thrown around casually ffs.

Players like Samper/Verratti/Gundogan could make a much, MUCH larger impact on the overall state of the team than Pogba. With the prospects we have (Samper having a very high success probability, Kaptoum/Rafinha/Denis/Grimaldo/etc. with decent chances as well) I think we only need to rely on one outside "proven" midfielder long term. Gundogan or Verratti would be ideals, the former would not yield an astronomical fee. It would be a serious travesty for Samper not to succeed here given his talent and maturity, Busi can still anchor us long term with better support and a few tactical tweaks, and the third starting midfield position is open for either a transfer or a prospect if they can seriously step up to the challenge. Our midfield needs a renovation right now but it's not really a difficult one to do at all. Nothing that calls for demanding a player like Pogba for a jackass transfer fee so that he can enjoy having some entertaining individual performances here for a period of years without being a leader of the midfield and eventually moving on like the journeyman that he is. Gundogan, given his return from injury and going through a rough personal period, probably won't cost us any more than Cesc cost Chelsea. We don't have to just splurge on a massively hyped player at his peak demand and highest price when we have an opportunity to get an equal talent in a worse situation with a high probable return (it's the simple number one rule of investing).

 

[BBZ8800]

I remember Ronaldinho did that, it worked pretty well.

Ronaldinho was efficient and yet beautiful to watch.
The same as Messi.

On the other hand, Neymar has some "clownish" skills, and he often slows down the play and screws the whole team in order to do some "magic" for the crowd.
Neymar improved in Barca, but if you watch his videos from Brasilian league, he was a player with similar "issues".

The goal of every player, if you want your team to win maximum of points and to win more trophies is to raise your efficiency.
You don't win points and trophies with clownish moves.
Those moves usually earn you likes from teenager football fans on Youtube, who are mostly obsessed with dribbles and good technique.

Efficiency wins trophies.
If you can be extremely efficient and still make some moves for the crowd (like Ronaldinho), then fine.
But Pogba is still far from Ronaldinho's level of overall efficiency.

Players like Samper/Verratti/Gundogan could make a much, MUCH larger impact on the overall state of the team than Pogba.

+1
Something like that, also.

 

[linetty]

Neymar is incredibly efficient and his skills are very welcome even if they slow the game down because it's pure joy for those watching it.

 

[Morten]

Ronaldinho was efficient and yet beautiful to watch.
The same as Messi.

Messi is not as entertaining as Ronaldinho, not at all. In his younger years he did those absurd raids, he still drible like no other, but he is all about efficency the last few years. Also, his dribbling is "boring" compared to the likes of Ronaldinho.

 

[DonAK]

Messi is not as entertaining as Ronaldinho, not at all. In his younger years he did those absurd raids, he still drible like no other, but he is all about efficency the last few years. Also, his dribbling is "boring" compared to the likes of Ronaldinho.

Same with Cristiano. Was much more entertaining in his Man Utd days. Now it's all about being efficient and scoring goals.

 

[BBZ8800]

Neymar is incredibly efficient and his skills are very welcome even if they slow the game down because it's pure joy for those watching it.

No, he is not YET.
To be incredibly efficient, he would need to be awesome both in scoring, creating chances for his teammates all the time (with small % of lost balls).
He would also need to work extremely good off the ball, when we have the ball, and when we don't have it.

Anyway, for now, Neymar in Barca was either a creator or scorer.
He is not YET both. Plus, he is not "a world class/goat class" in any of that yet.

Messi, on the other hand, is BOTH.

Messi is not as entertaining as Ronaldinho, not at all.
but he is all about efficency the last few years.

This is why he is MESSI.
And this is why he can alone bring more points/trophies than Ronaldinho.

Messi is not a kid anymore and he realized than unnecessary dribbles and moves don't bring you points.
Neymar will hopefully learn that also over time.
And Pogba also.

But, a lot of players never learn. And they never improve in that area.

Same with Cristiano. Was much more entertaining in his Man Utd days. Now it's all about being efficient and scoring goals.

And now he brings more points/trophies to his team.
Very simple

 

[linetty]

No, he is not YET.
To be incredibly efficient, he would need to be awesome both in scoring, creating chances for his teammates all the time (with small % of lost balls).
He would also need to work extremely good off the ball, when we have the ball, and when we don't have it.

Anyway, for now, Neymar in Barca was either a creator or scorer.
He is not YET both.

Messi, on the other hand, is BOTH.

With 19 goals and 4 assists in 22 games I'd say Neymar is very efficient. The assist mark should've been a bit better but he still has time to pad them up. You can't always have both. Messi always provides both but Messi is Messi and it's unfair to compare him to anyone because he's something else.

Neymar delivers and makes it all around more entertaining with his great skills - I hail the man and wholeheartedly wish his career at Barca lasts for years to come.

 

[BBZ8800]

With 19 goals and 4 assists in 22 games I'd say Neymar is very efficient. The assist mark should've been a bit better but he still has time to pad them up. You can't always have both. Messi always provides both but Messi is Messi and it's unfair to compare him to anyone because he's something else.

Neymar delivers and makes it all around more entertaining with his great skills - I hail the man and wholeheartedly wish his career at Barca lasts for years to come.

You can't throw numbers like that. You need to compare his stats with stats from similar players.

That is like saying:
Player XX is awesome, he scored 80 Goals this Season in New Zeland league in 34 matches.
Then you can think: wow, what a goal scoring machine.
-- but then you realize that his team wins 20:1 and 18:0 most of the matches, and that his team scored 600 Goals that Season.
-- and that a Fc2 scored 120 Goals, and their Amc scored also 80 Goals

Then his numbers aren't that impressive anymore.

About Ney's numbers you would need to check:
-- how many dribbles he tried
-- how many key passes he tried. How many times he created a goalscoring opportunity for his teammates
-- how many assists he created
-- how many shots he tried in total, for 19 Goals

Then, imo, you would see that he still loses a lot of balls, and that he isn't as effective as Messi, for example.
Also, you could compare his number of attempts, good passes, bad passes, goals with Ronaldinho's, Etoo's and Henry's stats to see if he is equal, worse or better than similar Barca's players on his position.

If you look only at stats in your way, then Cristiano is better player than Messi, Cesc is the best Amc in the world, Alexis is a goat etc.
You need much more numbers, parameters and everything.

 

[KingMessi]

I like Pogba and all, but for the rumored 100M Euro fee that's been thrown around, no thanks.

We could just as easily pay Koke's buyout fee (60M Euros), and he's more of a team-oriented central midfielder than Pogba is IMO.

 

[linetty]

You can't throw numbers like that. You need to compare his stats with stats from similar players.

That is like saying:
Player XX is awesome, he scored 80 Goals this Season in New Zeland league in 34 matches.
Then you can think: wow, what a goal scoring machine.
-- but then you realize that his team wins 20:1 and 18:0 most of the matches, and that his team scored 600 Goals that Season.
-- and that a Fc2 scored 120 Goals, and their Amc scored also 80 Goals

Then his numbers aren't that impressive anymore.

That's complete nonsense.

 

[Sumlit]

Pogba is still very young. Midfield is very much a position about maturity and composure the older and more experience a player gets. His impetus and aggressiveness is a product of his young age and that will get polished. There is no doubt that he is a massively talented player and he could very well be the hammer from midfield that Barca needs. His overall game will only improve, and also don't discount the effect playing for Juve has on his game, as opposed to how he would play like in Barcelona instead.
His potential cost is certainly a problem (€100m lel, no thank you), as is his problematic agent, but I don't buy this "he wouldn't necessarily fit in the team" narrative.

If Neymar has shown us something from his integration to the team up to this point and the likely future, is that where there is talent and willingness to learn and improve, you can mold and fill up the the peripheral skills of a player to suit your preferences.

 

[Icarium]

If neymar is not efficient player this season then name a player who is not named messi and who is a much more efficient. He has 2.8 spg and 2.6 drb per game. Neymar is not creating chances because the current tactics does not allow him to be. Every ball goes through messi. If you see neymar of brazil he creates enough to be considered good. Plus barca need to change the style much more to utilize neymar completely. That is not going to happen as long as messi is still at barca.

Neymar is still 22, just watch him at next world cup. Then you will see a completely different player with some good decision making also. When to go for a dribble, when to pass and who to pass. All will come with experience, he has shown potential of great passing in many occasions. So it is completely possible.

 

[DonAK]

No mate. You gotta be the finished article at an age of 21 or 22 or else you're not good enough for the almighty Barcelona midfield or team.

 

[DonAndres]

Pogba is still very young. Midfield is very much a position about maturity and composure the older and more experience a player gets. His impetus and aggressiveness is a product of his young age and that will get polished. There is no doubt that he is a massively talented player and he could very well be the hammer from midfield that Barca needs. His overall game will only improve, and also don't discount the effect playing for Juve has on his game, as opposed to how he would play like in Barcelona instead.
His potential cost is certainly a problem (€100m lel, no thank you), as is his problematic agent, but I don't buy this "he wouldn't necessarily fit in the team" narrative.

If Neymar has shown us something from his integration to the team up to this point and the likely future, is that where there is talent and willingness to learn and improve, you can mold and fill up the the peripheral skills of a player to suit your preferences.

It's not that he can't adapt, it's just that getting Pogba would quite literally be taking the polar opposite of the "path of least resistance". We'd be busting our asses massively over a year from now to pay something akin to 100m for a hyped midfield talent so that Lucho can teach him to be something completely different than a showy player whose entire game revolves around feeding off of the service of his team to be an individual instead of serving others himself. Pogba has the fundamental skillset that is characteristic of a world class prospect but almost all of his momentum is built off of him playing with total positional freedom to serve his own attacking instincts and whims. Of course, he's young and talented enough to change and develop into what we want to "mould" him into but it's a pretty damn different profile than what he's grown up to enjoy playing and be successful at. All of that effort on one player knowing that he has a primadonna attitude and could very well cause issues in the next years with coach disagreements, wage/contract demands, journeyman nature, etc. which could lead to his departure. There's no way I want to break transfer records to bring someone like him here.

It's a much more complicated task than what it's worth when someone like Gundogan is a natural at the desired "mould", matches him in talent (though not in hype), and has all the hallmarks of the *perfect* investment. Seriously think about it: Dortmund are at their absolute worst state as a club and are in a position of very little negotiation power or appeal. Gundogan massively decreased his international demand with his injury and through the fact that most top clubs are secure in midfield. Now he's relatively fit and only suffers from the same over-worked injury struggles as the rest of BVB. He's still only 24 years old and retains all the talent that he had before, only that he's not in the limelight right now. If he were to come he'd be playing in a team that suits his strengths, away from the over-intensity that crippled him, and would only require some temporary special attention for fitness and integration to get him back to his best level. The time to capitalize on an opportunity like this is NOW. Seal a pre-deal (Nerman style) for the 2016 winter transfer window ASAP so that we take full advantage of this situation that drives his price down and facilitates a transfer. He won't even be cup-tied ffs!!

Though I'm a fool for expecting this to be realistic. We're sitting here with no sporting director whatsoever, let alone an intelligent one with an eye for a good deal. On top of that, our board is in shambles and is spearheaded by an imbecile who can't pay attention to our very own youth system or management because he's too busy focusing on elections that he won't win. The other candidates (Laporta, Benedito, etc.) will also be too focused on the elections to think about the most necessary transfer after the ban and if, by some instance, we do wake up to the golden opportunity of Ilkay Gundogan, it'll probably be in July or later by which time he'll already have signed for someone else. A club like Arsenal, Bayern, City, etc. who either actually need him or recognize him as a profitable asset for the team.

 

[Gasgas]

If neymar is not efficient player this season then name a player who is not named messi and who is a much more efficient. He has 2.8 spg and 2.6 drb per game. Neymar is not creating chances because the current tactics does not allow him to be. Every ball goes through messi. If you see neymar of brazil he creates enough to be considered good. Plus barca need to change the style much more to utilize neymar completely. That is not going to happen as long as messi is still at barca
Neymar is still 22, just watch him at next world cup. Then you will see a completely different player with some good decision making also. When to go for a dribble, when to pass and who to pass. All will come with experience, he has shown potential of great passing in many occasions. So it is completely possible.

Tell him! Tell him!
How does he expect neymar to be both creative and a goalscorer if every ball goes through messi and the rest are called upon to receive his throughballs/key passess?