Philippe Coutinho

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Bbz took the L on Trincao. 0 chance he takes another L on Coutinho dawgs

This is the most tragic feature of BBZ and some other posters here. It is not pride, it is stubbornness. It is not "manly" or "alpha," it is childish. One cannot be a good thinker if they never admit they are/were wrong in some instance, and consequently they never grow. This is why BBZ has been like a stuck record ever since his appearance here, just recycling the same thoughts. He lacks the intellectual courage to admit he was wrong as well as to take a more adventurous position rather than his usual pessimistic gerontocratic philosophy.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
This is the most tragic feature of BBZ and some other posters here. It is not pride, it is stubbornness. It is not "manly" or "alpha," it is childish. One cannot be a good thinker if they never admit they are/were wrong in some instance, and consequently they never grow. This is why BBZ has been like a stuck record ever since his appearance here, just recycling the same thoughts. He lacks the intellectual courage to admit he was wrong as well as to take a more adventurous position rather than his usual pessimistic gerontocratic philosophy.

You could say that I was stubborn with defending my countryman Rakitic at times.

About Cou, I honestly like his skillset.
It might be that he is ruined by Messi.
Or that he has a horrible mental strength and that he easily loses confidence.
Or both.

About other things, what if I honestly believe in them?
Why on Earth should I hate Pep for no reason?
With a contrarian argument, I could go to Real's forums and shit on Zidane and Cr7, just to be a contrarian, right?

About Pep, I don't understand some posters here.
Yes, Pep recycled basics of a Dream Team and lifted us to GOAT levels in those years.

But, still, he raised one or two aspects of our game to GOAT levels and weakened some other aspects.

A few years later, when his style has been figured out, he and us (Barca) didn't have too much options in matches where our plan A hasn't worked, like Atletico in 2014, 2016, Juve etc

For example, Mou had a similar path in early 2000s.
He won a CL with a crappy Porto with his weird anti football with defenfing, hoofing the ball ipfield as soon as possible, aiming for a CF targetman who will head the ball to two fast wingers, they will run with the ball into the box and either score or pass to that targetman to score.

Mou figured out a great combination of stonewall defense and a weird blitzkrieg attacking counters tactics and for 3-4 years teams were shocked and didn't know at all how to stop him.
Back then Mou was the best coach in the world.

Yet, when teams have slowly found ways how to not get killed by his counters (for example Barca in 2006), all teams started to play in the same way against Mou and his tactics weren't invincible anymore but predictable.

Now, I am not comparing the greatness of Pep and Mou.
I am just giving a comparison that it is quite possible to be the best in one era and meh and an open book 10 years later.
Mou still plays the same shitty tactics today, with minor changes.
But his football is not GOAT anymore.

So I really don't get what is so hard to accept that similar happened with Pep.
Again, imo, majority of you grew up with Pep's Barca and it has a special emotional place in your heart and brains.
So ideas like: Pep's football is finished or one dimensional to some extent, don't sit well.

On the other hand, if I would ask you: is Mou's football from 2003-2007 figured out and outdated?
People would say: yes.

Yet, when you ask the same about Pep's football from 2008-2012, our fans get angry, lol.

I have said 1000 times: every coach ever and every system ever in football's history till now got outdated after some time.
Yet, you guys think that it is different with Pep.
As if: his style will never die, never get figured out, and my favorite: "if executed properly, it would still work perfectly in 2030, 2050 or 2200, right?"

One big fat lol.

JamDav, when I say: Pep's Barca didn't cross, don't take it literally.

It means something like this:
Rijkaard's Barca had, let's say:
10 possession actions per match
4 counters
3 long balls from deep
3 crosses

While Pep's Barca had, my estimation:
15 possession actions
3 counters
2 crosses
0 long balls

Or finishing wise:
Rijkaard:
10 regular finishes from inside of a box with feet
5 long range attempts
5 headers after crosses

Pep:
17 regular finishes from insidw of a box with feet
2 long range attempts
1 header

So, don't read my words about no crosses or lobg balls in Pep's Barca in absolute terms.

But if you would dig deeper into numbers, you would clearly see those patterns how Pep traded majority of footballing aspects for a perfection in possession, passing and finishing with feet inside of a box.

And again, it worked perfectly for 3 years.
After that he became a victim of his style.

And yes, I know, he introduced some new things at City, like more counters and crosses.
But deep down, does Pep's football from City looks closer to:
1. Mou's Chelsea
2. Pep's Barca
3. Zidane's Real
4. Current Bayern?

My point: deep down Pep is still Pep.
80-90% of his Barca's principles are still the same in his current tactics.

And this is why imo, more or less he'll never win anything again.
He and his tactics are on the place where Mou was 4-5 years ago.

But our fans will never accept it.
 

vuji_31

Senior Member
I would trade any skill in the game for 14 trophyes.

Your words say that it was not worth to sarifice crossing for greatest team ever.

It is not Peps fault that after 2012/13 Barca didn't go to refresh the team.
 

Respekt_III

Anti-everything
@bbz Coutinho is everything you despise in a player going by your posting history. He's more 'beta' than all of our players combined lol.
This is purely you not being able to accept that you could be so wrong about a player who you backed strongly who also cost so much.
 

serghei

Senior Member
@bbz Coutinho is everything you despise in a player going by your posting history. He's more 'beta' than all of our players combined lol.
This is purely you not being able to accept that you could be so wrong about a player who you backed strongly who also cost so much.

Probably true, and hard not to see it like that.

Weak physically, not particularly fast, drifts in and out of form based on every mood swing imaginable and so on. A bit like Alexis. Except he was better for us, didn't cost a lot, and we even made a little profit off him.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
But the case of Coutinho is not properly thought of and treated in this forum.
People act as he is utter shit, without realizing that we are talking about the best player of Liverpool for many years.
He was the best player since Rodgers days (after Suarez left) up until he was sold to Barca. First name when fit on the team sheet under Klopp.
So many goals, so many splendid performances at Liverpool.

And suddenly he turns into shit the moment he walks into Baca's XI?
Think for yourselves how can that be.
 

Gnidrologist

Senior Member
I don't buy this "figured out" narrative by BBZ. Dutch team and Ajax of 70s played that style, Cruiffs Barca of 90s played it and Pep played it. They all succeeded and one thing that coincided in all those years was combination of great players and coach that knew how to utilize them the best. Pep could refine this style to ridiculous level, because he had ridiculous roster of players. A legendary bunch. There is a reason why Spain rapidly declined after Xavi and then Iniesta retired. People thought that Spain had good future with talents like Isco, Thiago etc. emerged, but it turns out they aren't even near that level.
Don't think Mous tactics is that different. There's hardly any cunning in playing defensive football with rapid counter attacks. That tactic is old as world, but you have to have certain set of high quality players. Catenaccio can still be implemented with right kind of manager and players.
 

serghei

Senior Member
But the case of Coutinho is not properly thought of and treated in this forum.
People act as he is utter shit, without realizing that we are talking about the best player of Liverpool for many years.
He was the best player since Rodgers days (after Suarez left) up until he was sold to Barca. First name when fit on the team sheet under Klopp.
So many goals, so many splendid performances at Liverpool.

And suddenly he turns into shit the moment he walks into Baca's XI?
Think for yourselves how can that be.

Makes total sense. It's Jurgen Klopp we're talking about. If anything the casual fan underestimates just how important a top manager is. The manager makes sure the team is well put together, the tactics are spot on, the trainings are intense, pretty much everything.

Coutinho is a quality player in some scenarios, and not so much in other scenarios.

I don't buy this "figured out" narrative by BBZ. Dutch team and Ajax of 70s played that style, Cruiffs Barca of 90s played it and Pep played it. They all succeeded and one thing that coincided in all those years was combination of great players and coach that knew how to utilize them the best. Pep could refine this style to ridiculous level, because he had ridiculous roster of players. A legendary bunch. There is a reason why Spain rapidly declined after Xavi and then Iniesta retired. People thought that Spain had good future with talents like Isco, Thiago etc. emerged, but it turns out they aren't even near that level.
Don't think Mous tactics is that different. There's hardly any cunning in playing defensive football with rapid counter attacks. That tactic is old as world, but you have to have certain set of high quality players. Catenaccio can still be implemented with right kind of manager and players.

"Figured out" narrative is total bullshit on BBZ's part. Fecking Rubin Kazan figured out what to do against Barca to have any chance very early under Pep. In 2009, not to mention Chelsea prior to that. Park the bus, try to have as tight of a defense as possible, finish the few chances you have with extreme efficiency. Hope the Barca players are not in a good finishing day, and hope your keeper is the opposite: inspired and sharp as hell.
 
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Laplacian

Senior Member
But the case of Coutinho is not properly thought of and treated in this forum.
People act as he is utter shit, without realizing that we are talking about the best player of Liverpool for many years.
He was the best player since Rodgers days (after Suarez left) up until he was sold to Barca. First name when fit on the team sheet under Klopp.
So many goals, so many splendid performances at Liverpool.

And suddenly he turns into shit the moment he walks into Baca's XI?
Think for yourselves how can that be.

He was shit for Bayern as well. If it's the whole "the Barcelona squad sucks, he doesn't fit in" narrative you're trying to pull here, explain why he was so underwhelming in one of the best squads in the world with pacy wingers on either side, a prolific center forward, one of the best mids in Europe and a fantastic defense. Why was he shit there? Why was he benched by Perisic and Muller?

Also he didn't suddenly turn to shit, he was world class in the second half of 2017/2018 for us. His form dipped in 2018/2019. If it was the squad's/club's fault, why was he so good during his first 6 months here? Lmao
 
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Vilarrubi

New member
It could be Coutinho is “ruined by Messi”...... :lol: :lol: heard it all now

Just forget Messi for a second. Just breathe and take Messi out of the equation.

Coutinho has played 89 games for us, that is SURELY enough games to show if he fits or not.
 

Jallo

Member
But the case of Coutinho is not properly thought of and treated in this forum.
People act as he is utter shit, without realizing that we are talking about the best player of Liverpool for many years.
He was the best player since Rodgers days (after Suarez left) up until he was sold to Barca. First name when fit on the team sheet under Klopp.
So many goals, so many splendid performances at Liverpool.

And suddenly he turns into shit the moment he walks into Baca's XI?
Think for yourselves how can that be.

Klopp couldn't wait to get rid of him. He is a limited one-trick pony, he is something in between a 10 or winger-ish. Other than cut in and shoot he doesn't do anything else. Even his dribbling has rapidly declined.
Look at how good Klopps team got so quickly without him. The guy does not make anyone better, he's just a good player, not a great player the club thought he was at 160m.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Klopp couldn?t wait to get rid of him. He is a limited one trick pony, he is something in between a 10 or winger?ish?. Other than cut in and shoot he doesn?t do anything else. Even his dribbling has rapidly declined.
Look at how good Klopps team got so quickly without him. The guy does not make anyone better, he?s just a good player not a great player the club thought he was at 160m.

You are clean making that up

Klopp tried his hardest to keep him and was telling him would have a statue one day if stayed at Liverpool.

Robertson, TAA, VVD, Alison all emerged fully after Coutinho left. That is the reason they got better. Not due to him leaving.
 

Joan

Well-known member
Bbz sounds as if there were thousands of styles outthere and they never stop being figured out. Of course, coaches do have some tricks which work.. until they don't. Same as teams or even players. Look at Alba, his passes to Messi used to work quite well untik very recently. Coaches do have signature styles, but in reality, there's only a handful of paths to follow and some in betweens.

It's a fact that the game has become more professional and physical. Harder to player solely possession based football, as Bbz might put it. I give him that.
 

CatalinR10

Senior Member
Coutinho had troubles shinning as a football player because of Messi even when he was cleaning Bayern's bench whole season.
 

Birdy

Senior Member
He was shit for Bayern as well. If it's the whole "the Barcelona squad sucks, he doesn't fit in" narrative you're trying to pull here, explain why he was so underwhelming in one of the best squads in the world with pacy wingers on either side, a prolific center forward, one of the best mids in Europe and a fantastic defense. Why was he shit there? Why was he benched by Perisic and Muller?

Also he didn't suddenly turn to shit, he was world class in the second half of 2017/2018 for us. His form dipped in 2018/2019. If it was the squad's/club's fault, why was he so good during his first 6 months here? Lmao

Bayern's style of play under Flick is very specific. Muller is key to that, and no other player can play his role. Then it also needs two pacy, dribblers as wingers.
No position left for Coutinho, the style itself is not designed to have such a type of player.
Then, even if not 1st choice, he was not underwhelming. Flick subbed him on even in CL knockouts and he was always decent.

Then, I don't agree at all with the interpretation that his form 'dipped' suddenly around the summer of 2018.
This is actually a narrative (the narrative of Coutinho suddenly and inexplicably becoming shit after being the best player of a top team for 4 years).
You indicating that I am trying to pull up some narrative. Actually the opposite, I am arguing against simplistic narratives such as the above.
 

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