Philippe Coutinho

[BBZ8800]

I don't buy this "figured out" narrative by BBZ. Dutch team and Ajax of 70s played that style, Cruiffs Barca of 90s played it and Pep played it. They all succeeded and one thing that coincided in all those years was combination of great players and coach that knew how to utilize them the best. Pep could refine this style to ridiculous level, because he had ridiculous roster of players. A legendary bunch. There is a reason why Spain rapidly declined after Xavi and then Iniesta retired. People thought that Spain had good future with talents like Isco, Thiago etc. emerged, but it turns out they aren't even near that level.
Don't think Mous tactics is that different. There's hardly any cunning in playing defensive football with rapid counter attacks. That tactic is old as world, but you have to have certain set of high quality players. Catenaccio can still be implemented with right kind of manager and players.

Let's calm down:
= can you name any team from the past who's EXACT style would work today?

For example:
1. Pele's Brasil?
No.
Football is too physical today.
2. 352 from Seria A in 90s?
= outdated, you are weak on wings.
442 with 2+2 wingers started to kill 352.
3. Then 442 was popular in late 90s.
It worked for some time, but then some teams turned to 451/433 which gave the edge over 442 in terms of 5 midfielders vs 4 midfielders.

Now, check my point:
1. In 90s, 352 was awesome because coaches haven't yet figured out a perfect way to kill 352 (with 442).
That doesn't mean that 442 hasn't existed before 90s. It is just that it wasn't a world known "cure" or neutralizer for 352.

So, my point is: in one moment in time 352 was the best formation in the world and a few years later it turned into a weak formation which could be neutralized quite easily by any semi-decent opponent (with 442).

2. Then 442 started to rule, especially a diamond 442 with a Cam and a destroyer.
And for some time, it was the best formation in the world.
But then again, coaches found a cure in 451/433/4231 with only one Cf instead of 2, and added an extra midfielder.

So again, in one moment, 442 was the best in the world only to turn into average a few years later when 451 became known, improved and popular and offered a huge 5 vs 4 advantage in midfield without sacrifying too much in attack.

So, you see, in the whole history of football, there isn't a single formation/tactics/system/call it what you want that survived in it's original shape.

And then, we have Barca fans claiming that Pep's style is not figured out and how it is more or less eternal.

Now please, remove emotions and ask yourself what is more likely?
1. Pep's style is the first style in a history which can't age?
2. Or our fans are in a denial?

About Serghei's remark how Netherlands and Ajax played the same.
Netherlands played 433 with a sweeper for the beginning.
Cruijff's Barca played 343 and 352 in 1992.
Our pivot was Pep, lol.
If you think that Busi is physically soft, you should have watched Pep.
So, in terms of 1992:
1. Basic principles of total football, possession, movement, smart players are the same.
2. Formation is outdated
3. A sweeper is outdated
4. 3 Cbs are outdated
5. Soft pivots are outdated etc

So, even if you take Cruijff's Dream Team, basics are the same.
But that EXACT tactics have aged and it can't work anymore.
It could work ONLY if you take basics of movement, smart play, possession and add a lot of improved things, which both Rijkaard and Pep did.

Regarding Pep, his style will have the same fate as every other style ever.
It will age, which is happening already.

How can it work again?
= only if you took Pep's basics about possession, attacking, movement, pressing and upgrade it with modern ideas like: players like Frenkie instead of snails like Busi, faster football, slightly less possession, more risks, slightly more versatility like crosses, counters, long balls, corners, a plan B in a good old no9 etc.

Oh wait, this is exactly what I am proposing: Barca's style mixed with modern football by Bayern or Liverpool.

So, basically, I don't hate ideas of upgraded Pep football.
I hate ideas of playing more or less a carbon copy of Pep's football from 2011.

** RespektIII, you said that I should hate Coutinho.
Look: I was a kid in 90s.
My football brain was wired back then.
Ac Milan was the best club in the world.
A pivot was Rijkaard and not Busi or Arthur.

Further, back then teams played 352 with two pivots and 1 Cam or 442 Diamond with a Cam and a destroyer.
Back then, a key player of every team was a no10, Cam.
My idols in 90s were: Gullit from Milan, Boban from Milan, Del Piero from Juve, Roberto Baggio, Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Totti.

Back then, a CM like today hasn't existed.
You were either a winger in 442, a Cam or a defensive midfielder.
There were no Xavi, Iniesta, Arthur, Thiago, Puig back then.

Then in early 00s with 451 and 433, some teams invented a new type of a CM who isn't good in scoring and who isn't good in defending, but is good in possession, let's say it that way.
And in that era, Cams started to die.
All teams started to play with Xavi-Modric type of players.

But imo, if you look at larger picture, outside of Barca's bubble, other teams are slowly moving away from those CMs and they are moving to a new era where Modric/Xavi of 2020 suddenly needs to either score or defend, or both.

In that sense, outside of Barca, there is a chance that Barca DNA/controller type of midfielders will die and that football will move to a new type of improved midfielders with even more required skills.

In that sense, Cou is a Cam and he resembles of my childhood idols from 1994 or 1998.
Further, he has shooting skills, which imo will be a huge requirement in the future.

On the other hand, you might understand better why I hate players like Arthur, Puig and similar.
They are not midfielders who are good in any end-product (like finishing or defending).
To me, they are some sort of possession masters and jack of all trades/master of none in all other skills.

Now, if you look at it from my perspective where I think that:
1. Pep's style is dead
2. We need to move to more physique and athleticism
3. I think that Barca type of midfielders will die in the future
4. I expect playmaking plus either scoring or defending from midfielders
= then you might understand why I see no future in Arthur/Puig and similar type of players.

 

[Messigician]

Lmfao imagine comparing Coutinho to those legendary players.

BBZ has officially become delusional, sad to see dawgs. One of the realest on the forum to this how the mighty have fallen

 

[serghei]

Which Bayern player was about flair and not hard work? I would argue non.
If Coutinho was great, they would have no problem incorporating him in starting line up.
He was simply not worthy of dropping a role player for him.

If Coutinho was a bit better defensively, he would've started.

 

[Laplacian]

If Coutinho was a bit better defensively, he would've started.

Ah yes, because Gnabry, Coman, and Muller are defensive beasts.

More like if he wasn't shit he would've started.

Non football reasons?
It happens a lot, and people always forget about it.
Players struggle in new cities all the time, or have something private destroying their confidence or discipline, something we don't see.

We have seen it with Hleb, i would argue he was very close to Coutinho level when he left Arsenal, just with shitty finishing ability . But in Barca he looked like he aged 9 years, couldn't even buy a dribble.

I remember many Arsenal fans shitting on us, saying we destroyed him.
At the end, Hleb himself admitted it was private issues that happened to him that destroyed his game.

Coutinho shows every sign of this.

This is the reason I'm going with as well. He was fine with us in 17/18, and after he came back from the world cup he was completely different even when we had the same squad. Regardless, it's certainly not because of Messi or the Barcelona squad like so many people here like to think it is. We'll get his reason within 5 years of his retirement and BBZ will take another L then too.

 

[mc_lovin]

Ah yes, because Gnabry, Coman, and Muller are defensive beasts.

More like if he wasn't shit he would've started.

Yep, so many excuses for this guy. He simply offers nothing on the ball. Horrible player.

 

[serghei]

Ah yes, because Gnabry, Coman, and Muller are defensive beasts.

Gnabry and Muller are top defensively. Hard workers. Coutinho is more like a flair player, but in terms of workrate and positional discipline, especially when off the ball, he is not at the standard of those Bayern players.

Coutinho is not shit. He is a top player with good parts and bad parts, and it's up to the club to use him in ways that showcase his skills and hide his mediocre traits.

Don't know why these ideas still get traction here. Klopp proved at Liverpool that Coutinho can play great when used well. So, he is not objectively shit, but he can play like a shit player if used badly.

We shouldn't have signed him, but it's a different question.

 

[Birdy]

There is a single point about Coutinho you missed in my post. He is shit. That was it. Clear as day.

Everything else is not about Messi, it's about you. Your post history about Messi suggests that you have no right telling others they should respect or take into account Coutinho's past achievements before commenting on him. This derives from the simple fact that you don't do it yourself for a much better player.

There it is, after the I made it even simpler.

'He is shit' is not an argument. It's a judgment, and unless you can back it up with reasons, it has 0 value.

Then, I usually disregard ad honimem attacks. So sorry I am not going to play the personal game here.

Then your analogy shows you never understood my point about Coutinho, because I never said we should not criticize performances because a player's past provides special privilege of exemption from criticism. That's actually an (fanboy-ish) unproductive, emotional, blindness.
I said we should question how it's possible a top team's best player to become not good enough when he walks into Barca. Any fan that loves his club should ask himself that.

they barely made the top 4 once with him before he transferred out. yeah totally a top team at the time.

Nice one!
This table is from 14/15, and I clearly said since 2016, or to make even more precise since the season 16/17 that was the first season Klopp had the opportunity to prepare his own team, make transfers, and have a preseason.
They made top-4 that season competing much better squads of City, Chelsea, etc and Coutinho was the best player.
Up to the day he was transferred out.

So, that's not the reason. The 'we are bigger than Liverpool' argument is short-sighted point that is pretty much untrue.

Non football reasons?
It happens a lot, and people always forget about it.
Players struggle in new cities all the time, or have something private destroying their confidence or discipline, something we don't see.

We have seen it with Hleb, i would argue he was very close to Coutinho level when he left Arsenal, just with shitty finishing ability . But in Barca he looked like he aged 9 years, couldn't even buy a dribble.

I remember many Arsenal fans shitting on us, saying we destroyed him.
At the end, Hleb himself admitted it was private issues that happened to him that destroyed his game.

Coutinho shows every sign of this.

This line of interpretation is more plausible than all the 'he is shit' nonsense.
Same can be said about Griezman. Griezman misses so many easy chances he never missed at Atleti.
Coutinho scored so many goals from shots outside the box with Liverpool and here he takes less and fails also to score them.
It's irrational to assume both turned suddenly into 10 times worse the players they were.

And I would be really curious to see the reasons that might be behind it.
And I really wanna see both of them without Messi as an experiment, to check whether the hypothesis that they are psychologically overwhelmed by Messi's presence has any validity or not

 

[Respekt_III]

Nice one!
This table is from 14/15, and I clearly said since 2016, or to make even more precise since the season 16/17 that was the first season Klopp had the opportunity to prepare his own team, make transfers, and have a preseason.
They made top-4 that season competing much better squads of City, Chelsea, etc and Coutinho was the best player.
Up to the day he was transferred out.

So, that's not the reason. The 'we are bigger than Liverpool' argument is short-sighted point that is pretty much untrue.

Point is that he had one decent season where they barely made the top 4 in all his seasons there. The EPL at the time was also very weak as evidenced by the terrible performances from the higher placed PL clubs in European competitions, so make of it what you will but him having a purple patch of form for 1-1.5 years does not make him world class.
As for him being their best player, no... Most hyped sure but he wasn't clearly their best player.

 

[JohnN]

'He is shit' is not an argument. It's a judgment, and unless you can back it up with reasons, it has 0 value.

Then, I usually disregard ad honimem attacks. So sorry I am not going to play the personal game here.

Then your analogy shows you never understood my point about Coutinho, because I never said we should not criticize performances because a player's past provides special privilege of exemption from criticism. That's actually an (fanboy-ish) unproductive, emotional, blindness.
I said we should question how it's possible a top team's best player to become not good enough when he walks into Barca. Any fan that loves his club should ask himself that.


Nice one!
This table is from 14/15, and I clearly said since 2016, or to make even more precise since the season 16/17 that was the first season Klopp had the opportunity to prepare his own team, make transfers, and have a preseason.
They made top-4 that season competing much better squads of City, Chelsea, etc and Coutinho was the best player.
Up to the day he was transferred out.

So, that's not the reason. The 'we are bigger than Liverpool' argument is short-sighted point that is pretty much untrue.



This line of interpretation is more plausible than all the 'he is shit' nonsense.
Same can be said about Griezman. Griezman misses so many easy chances he never missed at Atleti.
Coutinho scored so many goals from shots outside the box with Liverpool and here he takes less and fails also to score them.
It's irrational to assume both turned suddenly into 10 times worse the players they were.

And I would be really curious to see the reasons that might be behind it.
And I really wanna see both of them without Messi as an experiment, to check whether the hypothesis that they are psychologically overwhelmed by Messi's presence has any validity or not

Oh, I am sorry. Was that insulting to you? Was that an attack on your personality or was it a criticism of the way you speak about other player?
You are just avoiding a direct response and claim ad hominem, when I never attacked your personality or views, but only your actions.

Also, Coutinho is shit is my opinion, not a judgment.
That's an opinion derived from every time I have seen him.
If you want justification, you can just rewatch every Barca match and see how he did.

 

[vegitot]

'He is shit' is not an argument. It's a judgment, and unless you can back it up with reasons, it has 0 value.

Then, I usually disregard ad honimem attacks. So sorry I am not going to play the personal game here.

Then your analogy shows you never understood my point about Coutinho, because I never said we should not criticize performances because a player's past provides special privilege of exemption from criticism. That's actually an (fanboy-ish) unproductive, emotional, blindness.
I said we should question how it's possible a top team's best player to become not good enough when he walks into Barca. Any fan that loves his club should ask himself that.


Nice one!
This table is from 14/15, and I clearly said since 2016, or to make even more precise since the season 16/17 that was the first season Klopp had the opportunity to prepare his own team, make transfers, and have a preseason.
They made top-4 that season competing much better squads of City, Chelsea, etc and Coutinho was the best player.
Up to the day he was transferred out.

So, that's not the reason. The 'we are bigger than Liverpool' argument is short-sighted point that is pretty much untrue.



This line of interpretation is more plausible than all the 'he is shit' nonsense.
Same can be said about Griezman. Griezman misses so many easy chances he never missed at Atleti.
Coutinho scored so many goals from shots outside the box with Liverpool and here he takes less and fails also to score them.
It's irrational to assume both turned suddenly into 10 times worse the players they were.

And I would be really curious to see the reasons that might be behind it.
And I really wanna see both of them without Messi as an experiment, to check whether the hypothesis that they are psychologically overwhelmed by Messi's presence has any validity or not

Simple answer: Coutinho just passes his best. Samething for every players. Ronaldinho for example, still very good in 2006/2007 season then declined rapidly in next season.

 

[vegitot]

Let's calm down:
= can you name any team from the past who's EXACT style would work today?

For example:
1. Pele's Brasil?
No.
Football is too physical today.
2. 352 from Seria A in 90s?
= outdated, you are weak on wings.
442 with 2+2 wingers started to kill 352.
3. Then 442 was popular in late 90s.
It worked for some time, but then some teams turned to 451/433 which gave the edge over 442 in terms of 5 midfielders vs 4 midfielders.

Now, check my point:
1. In 90s, 352 was awesome because coaches haven't yet figured out a perfect way to kill 352 (with 442).
That doesn't mean that 442 hasn't existed before 90s. It is just that it wasn't a world known "cure" or neutralizer for 352.

So, my point is: in one moment in time 352 was the best formation in the world and a few years later it turned into a weak formation which could be neutralized quite easily by any semi-decent opponent (with 442).

2. Then 442 started to rule, especially a diamond 442 with a Cam and a destroyer.
And for some time, it was the best formation in the world.
But then again, coaches found a cure in 451/433/4231 with only one Cf instead of 2, and added an extra midfielder.

So again, in one moment, 442 was the best in the world only to turn into average a few years later when 451 became known, improved and popular and offered a huge 5 vs 4 advantage in midfield without sacrifying too much in attack.

So, you see, in the whole history of football, there isn't a single formation/tactics/system/call it what you want that survived in it's original shape.

And then, we have Barca fans claiming that Pep's style is not figured out and how it is more or less eternal.

Now please, remove emotions and ask yourself what is more likely?
1. Pep's style is the first style in a history which can't age?
2. Or our fans are in a denial?

About Serghei's remark how Netherlands and Ajax played the same.
Netherlands played 433 with a sweeper for the beginning.
Cruijff's Barca played 343 and 352 in 1992.
Our pivot was Pep, lol.
If you think that Busi is physically soft, you should have watched Pep.
So, in terms of 1992:
1. Basic principles of total football, possession, movement, smart players are the same.
2. Formation is outdated
3. A sweeper is outdated
4. 3 Cbs are outdated
5. Soft pivots are outdated etc

So, even if you take Cruijff's Dream Team, basics are the same.
But that EXACT tactics have aged and it can't work anymore.
It could work ONLY if you take basics of movement, smart play, possession and add a lot of improved things, which both Rijkaard and Pep did.

Regarding Pep, his style will have the same fate as every other style ever.
It will age, which is happening already.

How can it work again?
= only if you took Pep's basics about possession, attacking, movement, pressing and upgrade it with modern ideas like: players like Frenkie instead of snails like Busi, faster football, slightly less possession, more risks, slightly more versatility like crosses, counters, long balls, corners, a plan B in a good old no9 etc.

Oh wait, this is exactly what I am proposing: Barca's style mixed with modern football by Bayern or Liverpool.

So, basically, I don't hate ideas of upgraded Pep football.
I hate ideas of playing more or less a carbon copy of Pep's football from 2011.

** RespektIII, you said that I should hate Coutinho.
Look: I was a kid in 90s.
My football brain was wired back then.
Ac Milan was the best club in the world.
A pivot was Rijkaard and not Busi or Arthur.

Further, back then teams played 352 with two pivots and 1 Cam or 442 Diamond with a Cam and a destroyer.
Back then, a key player of every team was a no10, Cam.
My idols in 90s were: Gullit from Milan, Boban from Milan, Del Piero from Juve, Roberto Baggio, Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Totti.

Back then, a CM like today hasn't existed.
You were either a winger in 442, a Cam or a defensive midfielder.
There were no Xavi, Iniesta, Arthur, Thiago, Puig back then.

Then in early 00s with 451 and 433, some teams invented a new type of a CM who isn't good in scoring and who isn't good in defending, but is good in possession, let's say it that way.
And in that era, Cams started to die.
All teams started to play with Xavi-Modric type of players.

But imo, if you look at larger picture, outside of Barca's bubble, other teams are slowly moving away from those CMs and they are moving to a new era where Modric/Xavi of 2020 suddenly needs to either score or defend, or both.

In that sense, outside of Barca, there is a chance that Barca DNA/controller type of midfielders will die and that football will move to a new type of improved midfielders with even more required skills.

In that sense, Cou is a Cam and he resembles of my childhood idols from 1994 or 1998.
Further, he has shooting skills, which imo will be a huge requirement in the future.

On the other hand, you might understand better why I hate players like Arthur, Puig and similar.
They are not midfielders who are good in any end-product (like finishing or defending).
To me, they are some sort of possession masters and jack of all trades/master of none in all other skills.

Now, if you look at it from my perspective where I think that:
1. Pep's style is dead
2. We need to move to more physique and athleticism
3. I think that Barca type of midfielders will die in the future
4. I expect playmaking plus either scoring or defending from midfielders
= then you might understand why I see no future in Arthur/Puig and similar type of players.

Is Coutinho shooting still working??? Probably not anymore.

 

[BBZ8800]

Is Coutinho shooting still working??? Probably not anymore.

Well, you know, he plays in a team where Messi is an absolute legend and everyone have a weird respect/obssession/fear of him.

If Cou would be a crap who can't create and can't shoot in matches without Messi, I would give up from him.

Till then, not.

Playing for Fc Messi in 2020/2021 must be a really weird place tacticaly and psychologicaly wise.

 

[Rory]

So let's get this straight. If Messi didn't exist in Barelona then Coutinho would be a world class player all of a sudden? This, after failing to make an impact at Bayern for a year in a system very close to what his optimum setup would be. After actually doing very well for the first 6 months at Barca which included Messi. Deluded

 

[Messigician]

^ agreed

 

[Rory]

Just like the coutinho supporters say "Messi has declined, just accept it" (which only the absolutely deluded fanboys would disagree with) you need to do this for Coutinho too. Remember how Rooney who is 5 times the player Coutinho ever was declined quite badly by age 28/29?