Philippe Coutinho

[mc_lovin]

BbZ does have a point that a mentally fit Coutinho can have a role in a Messi-less Barcelona.

But I think that Coutinho is mentally shot here.

That's why you read rumours of loan swap proposals with guys like Auba. So a player coming in mentally fresh here may perform better.

I still have a vivid picture of him in our Anfield loss. By far the worst perfomance of the night (and that says a lot). Same as Semedo vs Bayern, there are some games you don't recover from.

And I disagree that he can have a role in a Messi-less Barcelona. That applies to Griezmann, but not Coutinho. He's a complete misfit in a 433, and as a bench option simply too expensive.

 

[Porque]

I still have a vivid picture of him in our Anfield loss. By far the worst perfomance of the night (and that says a lot). Same as Semedo vs Bayern, there are some games you don't recover from.

And I disagree that he can have a role in a Messi-less Barcelona. That applies to Griezmann, but not Coutinho. He's a complete misfit in a 433, and as a bench option simply too expensive.

Well he had two good/great mini periods.

When he first moved and Messi was out, and not yet molded to Valverde ball.

And at the beginning of last season were he was given a key role in a 4231 while Messi head was AWOL and he was on a post Bayern high.

But I see him taking the similar spaces and balls as Depay. And I think we have to invest in Depay right now as he is at the right stage of his career in everything.

I'd take a loan swap for a season for someone on the right side or even a striker like Auba. But not Lacazette as I don't see a level above Braithwaite in him these days

 

[Rory]

That post Bayern period here lasted 2-3 games at most if I remember right.

 

[SmilerBam]

Was Coutinho ever shit for us? Or did he simply not impress? There is a difference there

If he did not impress, then it is because of two things: Messi eating up a lot of his role, and our expectations of what he should do given the amount of money we paid.

Messi is out now, and if we assess Coutinho without looking at how much we paid for him I think we will find good use for the guy

 

[JamDav1982]

Barca will need goals and assists from midfield this season more so than last and with Messi in team.

That is reason can see him getting another chance... also no bids will be in that he would accept most likely.

Coutinho at his best had goals, assists, ability to strike the ball at goal and range of passing that no one else in this midfield can match. But clearly his head has not been there and been nowhere near his best for too long.

 

[te amo barca]

Prime Coutinho was good enough only for a 4th-7th place finish for Liverpool... Washed-up Coutinho won't be good enough even for that. A player whose ability got overrated because he was a big fish in a small pond.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

That post Bayern period here lasted 2-3 games at most if I remember right.

True.

 

[JamDav1982]

Prime Coutinho was good enough only for a 4th-7th place finish for Liverpool... Washed-up Coutinho won't be good enough even for that. A player whose ability got overrated because he was a big fish in a small pond.

Coutinho was at Liverpool when they almost won the league with Rodgers and was their best player in year or so before he left which is why they wanted to keep him.

'Good enough for 4th-7th' doesnt even make sense.

 

[Porque]

That post Bayern period here lasted 2-3 games at most if I remember right.

Correct. It lasted until his injury.

But it is a basis coupled with his Valverde start that he could function here. But I think the mental damage is too much at our club to recuperate from.

But moving to another club, one smaller with less pressure, he can get his career back on track.

 

[BBZ8800]

That post Bayern period here lasted 2-3 games at most if I remember right.

1st round: Barcelona:Villareal 4:0
4231: left Fati-CAM Cou-right Griezz, Messi as a no9

2nd round: Celta:Barcelona 0:3
4231: left Fati-CAM Cou-right Griezz, No9 Messi

3rd round: Barcelona:Sevilla 1:1
4231: left Fati-CAM Cou-right Griezz, No9 Messi

And then Koeman started to rotate and change positions (maybe Messi himself asked to be returned deeper because he wasn't involved enough in buildup as a NO9 in 4231?), look at this:
4th round: Getafe:Barcelona 1:0
4231: Dembele, Pedri, Messi + No9 Griezmann

5th round: Barcelona:Real 1:3
442 Left winger Cou-Frenki-Busquets-Pedri, attack: Fati+Messi

6th round: Alaves:Barcelona 1:1
4231: Fati-CAM Messi-Dembele + No9 Griezz

7th round: Barcelona:Betis 5:2
442: Pedri-Frenkie-Busquets-Dembele + Fati-Griezz

8th round: Atletico:Barcelona 1:0
4231 Pedri-CAM Messi-Dembele + Griezmann

So, can we say that last season was Cou's fault?
He started as a CAM in the first 3 rounds and we won 7 points in those 3 matches with 8:1 goals ratio.
Then Koeman started to move Messi back to RW and CAM positions and started to give more time to Dembele and Pedri instead to Coutinho.

Result: we won 1 out of the next 5 matches. 1 win, 1 draw, 3 defeats. Goals ratio: 8:8

After that Koeman returned Cou in the lineup, this time as a CM (Iniesta) in 433 in 4:0 win vs Osasuna.
Only to change the formation again in the next match to 4231 against Alaves (1:2 loss) with Cou as a left winger in 4231, with Griezz as a CAM (wtf?), Messi RW and now Braithwaite as a NO9.

Then Koeman again returned to a good old 4231 against Levante at home.
Cou finally played as a CAM, with Braithwaite on the left (wtf?) and Griezz on the right and Messi as a No9.
We won 1:0.

In the next match against Sociedad, Koeman played the same 4231 but now with Pedri as a CAM and Cou was benched.
We won 2:1.

But in the next game against Valencia, Koeman played 4141 with Busi + Braithwaite-Cou-Pedri-Griezz + Messi.
We played 2:2.

So, is Cou guilty for this?
Koeman couldn't play two matches in a row with the same formatiion and a lineup.
4231, then 442, then 433, then 4231, then 442, then 4141.
And he moved players, for example: Cou: CAM, left wing, CM, LM in 442.
Griezmann started as a NO9, then moved to a RW, then to a CAM.
Messi was a No9, then RW, then CAM, then NO9 etc.

Cou played 3 matches in a row only in the opening 3 matches when we played well.
Then Koeman started to play more Pedri and Dembele and our results and faster played disappeared.

You can check our highlights from the opening matches when Cou was allowed to play as a CAM in 4231.
Barca:Villareal 4:0, assist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kzzmhUZOg

Celta:Barcelona 0:3, assist and a few nice shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chBQpI103AQ

After that we played crappier with Koeman's random formations.
And the only time when Cou played well again was in CL matches when Messi was rested.

So, all in all, in the last season, you have at least 3 factors:
1. Messi was here, Messipendencia was strong
2. Cou played only a few matches as a CAM
3. he never played more than 3 matches in a row except in the opening 3 rounds when we played awesome
4. Koeman was constantly changing formations and switching player's positions
5. later he got injured and missed the most of a season

 

[JamDav1982]

Coutinho is similar to Depay and Griezmann in that they have thrived in more fast paced and 'chaotic' football than have had at Barca.

FDJ would be better in that also but team is still built on Pique taking 5/6 touches to pass out from back, Busi being too slow to move to get ball and then move it forward quickly and a lack of pace up top.

Messi slowed game down to his pace as well which didnt help Coutinho but he still should have been far better.

Personally would rather see Pique out team for Araujo and double pivot of Pedri/FDJ with Coutinho AM but will never happen ad Pique and Busi could walk for 90 mins and not lose their standing in squad.

 

[te amo barca]

Coutinho was at Liverpool when they almost won the league with Rodgers and was their best player in year or so before he left which is why they wanted to keep him.

'Good enough for 4th-7th' doesnt even make sense.

That season was an outlier, Coutinho didn't finish higher than 4th with Liverpool except that one time.

 

[JamDav1982]

That season was an outlier, Coutinho didn't finish higher than 4th with Liverpool except that one time.

Same can be said for Suarez, Modric, Bale etc.

Doent mean 'only good enough for 4th-7th'.

Coutinho was class for Liverpool. Was voted their best player twice, was voted Brazils best player in that time and also one of best mids at 2018 WC.

Started off well for Barca also before it all went downhill.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

That season was an outlier, Coutinho didn't finish higher than 4th with Liverpool except that one time.

Just shows how important defensive stability is. Dijk and Allison gave them so much more than prime Coutinho itself.

Barca should take a note..

 

[JamDav1982]

Just shows how important defensive stability is. Dijk and Allison gave them so much more than prime Coutinho itself.

Barca should take a note..

Allison, VVD but also Robertson established himself and TAA.

More or less whole defence changed for Liverpool and three of best defenders in the world appeared. That gives more than any one player. Prime Messi included.