Premier League 23/24

Who will win PL this season?


  • Total voters
    29

jamrock

Senior Member
Pique was a clown in the later years but his 14/15 season after Lucho benched him is a masterclass in CB play. Insanely dominant, as he spearheaded the defense that ONLY conceded 37 goals in 60 games. And won the treble. Probably better than VVD's peak season (18/19).

His CB partner was an aging Mascherano btw.

Exactly

Temp and many others sleep on just how good pique was at his peak, they have made his latter years blind them to just how good he was.

One can make an argument VVD was as good, but significantly better the way temp does.

No shot.

No one is breaking up Ramos Pique for VVD.
 

serghei

Senior Member
How can those El Clasicos match this if Barca were so dominant against Real? One sided. Barca were too good for Madrid back then.

Because Barcelona at the time didn't play in EL but where trashing United in CL finals. A superior team to Liverpool in every way. Would be funny shit for Klopp to try his pressing vs peak Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. City side is like a weaker Barcelona version. Maybe 1-2 players get in. Foden for Pedro, that's about it. Even there it is close. Maybe Rodri is close to Busi also, but I would favor peak Busi.
 
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Temptation

Well-known member
Because Barcelona at the time didn't play in EL but where trashing United in CL finals. A superior team to Liverpool in every way. Would be funny shit for Klopp to try his pressing vs peak Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta. City side is like a weaker Barcelona version. Maybe 1-2 players get in. Foden for Pedri, that's about it. Even there it is close.
We reached 3 CL finals in 5 years you clown.


Also, not surprised that you're a Xaviboi with that cognitive ability.


No one compared the individual qualities of the 2 sides. The conversation is about Liverpool City and Madrid Barca.


Madrid Barca matches weren't as entertaining and one team dominated the matches overall in that period.


City Liverpool matches are very end to end and there's never an obvious winner in these games. No team concedes possesion or plays defensively.


Also, peak Barca-ball might have problems against modern pressing Football. For instance, players like Pedri would be huge in 2010 but look bang average in 2024. Bayern hammered you 7 nil over 2 legs with their physical Football. Tikitaka with midgets is outdated. Even Pep the pioneer of that has realised that. :lol:
 

serghei

Senior Member
You don't know what you are talking about. Peak Fabregas didn't have a place in the midfield and you talk about Pedri. Pedri would have been loaned if this was 2011. No chance he plays much.

That team was stacked. Abidal was a world class player and he was one of the worst in the team, so to speak.

How clueless do you have to be to think Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, all at their peaks, would be blocked by Hendo, Szoboslai and MacAllister?

These guys ended 1, 2, 3 in the Ballon d'Or.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Barca always dominated possession while Real sat back.


In City vs Liverpool, nobody holds back and both teams go full throttle with intensity.


Edge of the seat, end to end stuff.


As a spectacle, I haven't seen a higher quality match-up than Pep vs Klopp.

It is because neither team has many truly special players. Quite obvious. Teams would've played end to end vs Pep's Barcelona too, but some special players rendered this tactic suicidal. Much easier to play end to end when you have Alvarez and Foden to block, than Messi.

I would say this City is similar to a Pep Barca without Messi and without Xavi. That is not to say they would be playing in 9, but playing with just regular top players, not arguably greatest player and greatest CM of all time.
 
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Temptation

Well-known member
This isn't FIFA. Who said our players are better than Peak Barca players? Only VVD(who's way better than Pique unless you gain your Ball Knowledge from Wikipedia's Team Trophies list :lol:) and Alisson get into the team. Modern Football has evolved a lot.

Also, which year's Barca are we talking about exactly? Because Mane is a better player than Pedro for example.


Barcelona with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta got hammered 7 nil by Bayern, a weaker team on paper over 2 legs.


Klopp has a better H2H record against Pep with much lesser resources and the only team that has ever battered/destroyed Klopp's Liverpool is Dean Smith's Aston Villa(one-off freak result).

There's nothing to suggest that Barcelona would destroy Liverpool. It'll be a close contest. It's not about the individuals but the collective.
 

Temptation

Well-known member
It is because neither team has many truly special players. Quite obvious. Teams would've played end to end vs Pep's Barcelona too, but some special players readered this tactic suicidal. Much easier to play end to end when you have Alvarez and Foden to block, than Messi.

I would say this City is similar to a Pep Barca without Messi and without Xavi. That is not to say they would be playing in 9, but playing with just regular top players, not arguably greatest player and greatest CM of all time.
City have KDB who's an all time great(will be considered one when he retires and has nostalgia-bias in his favour) and one of the toughest midfielders to stop(Goals and Assists galore unlike Iniesta who depends on Messi and Xavi for the end product). City have Haaland, one of the biggest goal threats ever. They also have the best DM on the planet Rodri, best defensive RB on the planet Walker, one of the best technicians in Bernardo and other brilliant players like Foden, Alvarez, Ederson.


Plus Pep is older, wiser and more experienced now.


People forget that the teams Prime Barca was competing against weren't the best. Man Utd were declining after losing Ronaldo and ageing star players and manager. Bayern demolished Barca when they faced them. Madrid was a great team and Barca were exceptional against them. Juventus weren't at their very best. Chelsea won the semis against Barca and were robbed by the refs in 2009. The other Italian teams and Prem teams were weak.


People say the level of today's Football is shit. But the opponents Prime Barca faced were also shit except Madrid and Bayern who destroyed Barca. United were good but not great. Chelsea were good and defeated Barca in 2012 and were robbed in 2009.


Where's this narrative coming from? Nostalgia. People shitting on today's Football because they miss when their teams were great.
 

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
City have KDB who's an all time great(will be considered one when he retires and has nostalgia-bias in his favour) and one of the toughest midfielders to stop(Goals and Assists galore unlike Iniesta who depends on Messi and Xavi for the end product). City have Haaland, one of the biggest goal threats ever. They also have the best DM on the planet Rodri, best defensive RB on the planet Walker, one of the best technicians in Bernardo and other brilliant players like Foden, Alvarez, Ederson.


Plus Pep is older, wiser and more experienced now.


People forget that the teams Prime Barca was competing against weren't the best. Man Utd were declining after losing Ronaldo and ageing star players and manager. Bayern demolished Barca when they faced them. Madrid was a great team and Barca were exceptional against them. Juventus weren't at their very best. Chelsea won the semis against Barca and were robbed by the refs in 2009. The other Italian teams and Prem teams were weak.


People say the level of today's Football is shit. But the opponents Prime Barca faced were also shit except Madrid and Bayern who destroyed Barca. United were good but not great. Chelsea were good and defeated Barca in 2012 and were robbed in 2009.


Where's this narrative coming from? Nostalgia. People shitting on today's Football because they miss when their teams were great.

Agree with everything except that prime Barca has beaten prime Manu (2009) and prime Real (2011 5-0 )

Klopp's peak Liverpool would be definitely a tough opponent even for Pep's Barca
 

Temptation

Well-known member
Pique had better stats because he played in a better team, individually Van Dijk is slightly better than peak Pique who was a monster too
I can't think of one attribute where Pique is better than Virgil. Maybe short passing? But even there, VVD's short passing is amazing too so it doesn't matter much.


Pique was weak against fast attackers. Ronaldo used to destroy Pique(and Puyol) in 1 on 1 battles all the time. Pique is weak against fast attackers with quick feet. Pique can't defend space. He confessed to not liking the pace and intensity of the Prem.



Name one weakness VVD has in his game.


Despite being a strong commanding CB, VVD hardly ever gets a yellow card.



Individually, VVD is a better CB than Ramos too. These guys played in the greatest NT of all time and Prime Barca and Real which is why they won so many trophies. Valdes won way more than many keepers better than him. Can't believe I have to explain this simple lil thing so many times to the numpties of this forum.


People like Maldini rate VVD as arguably the best CB he has ever seen. Do you know how big a compliment that is?



Agree with everything except that prime Barca has beaten prime Manu (2009) and prime Real (2011 5-0 )

Klopp's peak Liverpool would be definitely a tough opponent even for Pep's Barca
I clearly mentioned Real Madrid as a very tough opponent Barca faced and defeated. Acknowledged that.


Barca deserve credit for beating 2009 United but after Ronaldo left, United got weaker. Tevez left. Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney were all ageing and declining gradually. Ferguson was reaching the end of his tenure.


The rest of the big teams at the time weren't that great except Bayern(who smoked Barca 7 nil) and Chelsea(who won the CL semi 2012 and got robbed in 2009).
 

Fati_Future_BallonDor

Well-known member
I can't think of one attribute where Pique is better than Virgil. Maybe short passing? But even there, VVD's short passing is amazing too so it doesn't matter much.


Pique was weak against fast attackers. Ronaldo used to destroy Pique(and Puyol) in 1 on 1 battles all the time. Pique is weak against fast attackers with quick feet. Pique can't defend space. He confessed to not liking the pace and intensity of the Prem.



Name one weakness VVD has in his game.


Despite being a strong commanding CB, VVD hardly ever gets a yellow card.



Individually, VVD is a better CB than Ramos too. These guys played in the greatest NT of all time and Prime Barca and Real which is why they won so many trophies. Valdes won way more than many keepers better than him. Can't believe I have to explain this simple lil thing so many times to the numpties of this forum.


People like Maldini rate VVD as arguably the best CB he has ever seen. Do you know how big a compliment that is?




I clearly mentioned Real Madrid as a very tough opponent Barca faced and defeated. Acknowledged that.


Barca deserve credit for beating 2009 United but after Ronaldo left, United got weaker. Tevez left. Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney were all ageing and declining gradually. Ferguson was reaching the end of his tenure.


The rest of the big teams at the time weren't that great except Bayern(who smoked Barca 7 nil) and Chelsea(who won the CL semi 2012 and got robbed in 2009).

Pique was a few years crap but i compare only the peaks of them and in 14/15 he became absolutely terrific again. Yes he is a slow player but was extremely intelligent in defending, one of the best defenders in this generation. Van Dijk is probably the best in this generation. Not a coincidence that Liverpool started to win after he came.


 

Temptation

Well-known member
Pique was a few years crap but i compare only the peaks of them and in 14/15 he became absolutely terrific again. Yes he is a slow player but was extremely intelligent in defending, one of the best defenders in this generation. Van Dijk is probably the best in this generation. Not a coincidence that Liverpool started to win after he came.


The ridiculous high line Klopp plays never works without Big Virg.


Look at our performances without Virgil.


He essentially stands on the halfway line and defends an entire half of the pitch along with his CB partner most of the time.
 

serghei

Senior Member
City have KDB who's an all time great(will be considered one when he retires and has nostalgia-bias in his favour) and one of the toughest midfielders to stop(Goals and Assists galore unlike Iniesta who depends on Messi and Xavi for the end product). City have Haaland, one of the biggest goal threats ever. They also have the best DM on the planet Rodri, best defensive RB on the planet Walker, one of the best technicians in Bernardo and other brilliant players like Foden, Alvarez, Ederson.


Plus Pep is older, wiser and more experienced now.


People forget that the teams Prime Barca was competing against weren't the best. Man Utd were declining after losing Ronaldo and ageing star players and manager. Bayern demolished Barca when they faced them. Madrid was a great team and Barca were exceptional against them. Juventus weren't at their very best. Chelsea won the semis against Barca and were robbed by the refs in 2009. The other Italian teams and Prem teams were weak.


People say the level of today's Football is shit. But the opponents Prime Barca faced were also shit except Madrid and Bayern who destroyed Barca. United were good but not great. Chelsea were good and defeated Barca in 2012 and were robbed in 2009.


Where's this narrative coming from? Nostalgia. People shitting on today's Football because they miss when their teams were great.

You are getting into discussions that make you look silly.

The thing is very few teams playing in an elite league manage to win 3 league titles and 2 champions league titles in 3 seasons. Even among the top ones, this type of excellence is only reserved for the best of the best.

Out of those, even fewer manage to assemble a team consisting of not one, not two, but three all time great players playing at their peaks. Including what many consider the best player of all time, and the best central midfielder of all time.

Out of those, even fewer have a legendary tactician leading them.

Out of those, even fewer have several key players that formed the backbone of their national team, a national team that won 2 Euro titles and 1 World Cup title in 6 years. So every major international tournament for 6 years straight.

On top of those, you also add the playing style that led to total domination on the field.

That team is nearly untouchable. Even 1-2 of those factors are hard to get in the same team, let alone 5-6.

Liverpool didn't even break the 1st level. They didn't even manage to establish domination internally, over their domestic rival of the time. It's silly to compare them to the best of the best.

Liverpool are an elite current team with an elite manager, that's it. But they won 1 league title and 1 champions league title in like 7 years. Finished many times in 2nd, both in England vs City, and in Europe vs a not so great version of Real Madrid.

Just one example why your arguments are not very good.

You say United were declining after losing Ronaldo. True, their 2011 team was not as great as their 2009 side. But still a better team than Tottenham in 2019. And yet, Barca pulverized Manchester United, 19-4 (12-1) in shots, while Liverpool defended a 1-0 lead vs Tottenham in 2019 for large spells of the game. Compare the performances. 12-1 in shots on target, vs 3-8. One was a masterclass in dominating your opponent, the other a close game won by the more efficient team on the night. City's game vs Inter was similar from last year.

Also, you got your Bayern games wrong. Pep's Barca destroyed Bayern 4-0 inside 30 mins on Camp Nou. Bayern beat the post-Pep Barcelona version whose manager was dealing with cancer at the time.
 
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Temptation

Well-known member
You are getting into discussions that make you look silly.

The thing is very few teams playing in an elite league manage to win 3 league titles and 2 champions league titles in 3 seasons. Even among the top ones, this type of excellence is only reserved for the best of the best.

Out of those, even fewer manage to assemble a team consisting of not one, not two, but three all time great players playing at their peaks. Including what many consider the best player of all time, and the best central midfielder of all time.

Out of those, even fewer have a legendary tactician leading them.

Out of those, even fewer have several key players that formed the backbone of their national team, a national team that won 2 Euro titles and 1 World Cup title in 6 years. So every major international tournament for 6 years straight.

On top of those, you also add the playing style that led to total domination on the field.

That team is nearly untouchable. Even 1-2 of those factors are hard to get in the same team, let alone 5-6.

Liverpool didn't even break the 1st level. They didn't even manage to establish domination internally, over their domestic rival of the time. It's silly to compare them to the best of the best.

Liverpool are an elite current team with an elite manager, that's it. But they won 1 league title and 1 champions league title in like 7 years. Finished many times in 2nd, both in England vs City, and in Europe vs a not so great version of Real Madrid.

Just one example why your arguments are not very good.

You say United were declining after losing Ronaldo. True, their 2011 team was not as great as their 2009 side. But still a better team than Tottenham in 2019. And yet, Barca pulverized Manchester United, 19-4 (12-1) in shots, while Liverpool defended a 1-0 lead vs Tottenham in 2019 for large spells of the game. Compare the performances. 12-1 in shots on target, vs 3-8. One was a masterclass in dominating your opponent, the other a close game won by the more efficient team on the night. City's game vs Inter was similar from last year.

Also, you got your Bayern games wrong. Pep's Barca destroyed Bayern 4-0 inside 30 mins on Camp Nou. Bayern beat the post-Pep Barcelona version whose manager was dealing with cancer at the time.
No. I am not.


I'm not saying we achieved more than that Barca team achieved. I'm not saying we are a better team than that Barca team.


We have only 1 PL and 1 CL under Klopp.



I'm talking about the evolution of Football and how 2019 Liverpool would be a tough opponent for 2011 Barca because Football has changed and Klopp has a better head to head against Pep. Klopp has found a way to make the unit stronger than the sum of it's individuals. Klopp's gegenpressing and counterpressing would definitely cause problems for any team in a one off game.


In the Bayern humiliation, you guys still had your all time great players. The managerial change doesn't justify a 7 goal defeat over 2 legs. If you lost by a goal or 2, then it's fine but 7.....



You guys always downplay the modern teams but the argument falls flat when we look at the competition faced by your team in their golden era. Only 3 or 4 European clubs had truly strong teams. Similar to what it is today. The rest of it is just nostalgia bias plain and simple.
 

serghei

Senior Member
You guys always downplay the modern teams but the argument falls flat when we look at the competition faced by your team in their golden era. Only 3 or 4 European clubs had truly strong teams. Similar to what it is today. The rest of it is just nostalgia bias plain and simple.

Dude, that collection of players from Pep's Barcelona achieved things that are almost impossible to replicate for decades. It's a mix of winning everything for 3-4 years, doing it in tremendous style by dominating everybody, and having a collection of insane legends + a legendary manager. Mix all three and you have a dream team.

It is extremely difficult for another team to get close to all of those 4-5 areas that Pep's Barcelona dominated in.

If some team does it, then parallels can be drawn. Nobody came very close. Until then... Madrid won 1 CL more in 2016-18, but then got dominated by a weaker Barca in Spain at the time, including some beatdowns, so...

Of course Pep's Barca faced some not so great teams too, like Lyon, 2009 Bayern, Shakhtar etc. Also some great sides, 2009 United, 2009 Chelsea, 2010 Inter, 2011 Mourinho Madrid. Usually, it didn't matter if it was a lower level or great side, Barca made them park the bus or pay the price for not doing so.
 
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