Premier League 23/24

[serghei]

You guys always downplay the modern teams but the argument falls flat when we look at the competition faced by your team in their golden era. Only 3 or 4 European clubs had truly strong teams. Similar to what it is today. The rest of it is just nostalgia bias plain and simple.

Dude, that collection of players from Pep's Barcelona achieved things that are almost impossible to replicate for decades. It's a mix of winning everything for 3-4 years, doing it in tremendous style by dominating everybody, and having a collection of insane legends + a legendary manager. Mix all three and you have a dream team.

It is extremely difficult for another team to get close to all of those 4-5 areas that Pep's Barcelona dominated in.

If some team does it, then parallels can be drawn. Nobody came very close. Until then... Madrid won 1 CL more in 2016-18, but then got dominated by a weaker Barca in Spain at the time, including some beatdowns, so...

Of course Pep's Barca faced some not so great teams too, like Lyon, 2009 Bayern, Shakhtar etc. Also some great sides, 2009 United, 2009 Chelsea, 2010 Inter, 2011 Mourinho Madrid. Usually, it didn't matter if it was a lower level or great side, Barca made them park the bus or pay the price for not doing so.

 

[serghei]

I'm talking about the evolution of Football and how 2019 Liverpool would be a tough opponent for 2011 Barca because Football has changed and Klopp has a better head to head against Pep. Klopp has found a way to make the unit stronger than the sum of it's individuals. Klopp's gegenpressing and counterpressing would definitely cause problems for any team in a one off game.

This isn't something new. Mourinho did the same things at Porto and Inter at the time.

We don't know how Klopp's gegenpressing would work against Pep's Barcelona, because Klopp never faced a team as great as that one on the ball. However, judging by the 2019 tie... when a much weaker Barcelona beat you guys 3-0 and Liverpool needed a miracle to go through... common sense indicates Pep's Barcelona would likely win most encounters.

 

[KingLeo10]

Temp is legitimately arguing that a bunch of youngsters/work horse midfielders and a couple of world-class players (VVD, Salah, Alisson etc.) are going to hang with a club side unanimously considered one of the top 3 ever (in many people's eyes, the best ever)?

I only see Cruyff's Ajax, Sacchi's Milan, and Pep's Barca in these lists, with some also having 50s RM.

Compared to those other sides, Pep's Barca was a modern side. They know and dealt with the intensity of the modern game (in fact, Pep's Barca was one of the pioneers of the press and high lines).

 

[mc_lovin]

Old Messi on his own nearly eliminated Liverpool Imagine a better Messi+all time greats like Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta in their primes

 

[Temptation]

This isn't something new. Mourinho did the same things at Porto and Inter at the time.

I know. Which is why I rate Mourinho's CV higher than Pep's(all time).

We don't know how Klopp's gegenpressing would work against Pep's Barcelona, because Klopp never faced a team as great as that one on the ball. However, judging by the 2019 tie... when a much weaker Barcelona beat you guys 3-0 and Liverpool needed a miracle to go through... common sense indicates Pep's Barcelona would likely win most encounters.

That 3 nil scoreline massively flattered Barca. We were definitely the better side over the 2 legs.

Dude, that collection of players from Pep's Barcelona achieved things that are almost impossible to replicate for decades. It's a mix of winning everything for 3-4 years, doing it in tremendous style by dominating everybody, and having a collection of insane legends + a legendary manager. Mix all three and you have a dream team.

It is extremely difficult for another team to get close to all of those 4-5 areas that Pep's Barcelona dominated in.


Of course Pep's Barca faced some not so great teams too, like Lyon, 2009 Bayern, Shakhtar etc. Also some great sides, 2009 United, 2009 Chelsea, 2010 Inter, 2011 Mourinho Madrid. Usually, it didn't matter if it was a lower level or great side, Barca made them park the bus or pay the price for not doing so.

Fair enough but Inter defeated you in the big semi final tie despite a ludicrous decision(Busquets playacting) while Chelsea were robbed in 2009 and defeated you in 2012 semi final.


Like you said, Barca had many all time greats so a managerial change shouldn't result in that abysmal result vs Bayern. Jupp Heynckes showed us the template of how to dominate Barcelona tactically even without parking the bus. You couldn't cope with their press and physicality. Now imagine Jurgen Klopp's press at it's very best!

They ate and left no crumbs.

 

[Temptation]

Old Messi on his own nearly eliminated Liverpool Imagine a better Messi+all time greats like Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta in their primes

Fabinho pocketed him in the second leg so badly that he nearly started weeping on the pitch.

 

[Porque]

Haven't read the thread, but I think VVD at his peak has proven to be the perfect modern day centreback. Imagine if we had him in the Guardiola era.

That blip in Milano just doesn't happen.

 

[mc_lovin]

Fabinho pocketed him in the second leg so badly that he nearly started weeping on the pitch.

Please, we had a million chances in the 2nd leg. And people like to forget it ended 4-3 overall...

 

[KingLeo10]

This fool is using 2012/2013 season as an example when:

1) Messi didn't play 2nd leg and was on 1 leg in first tie
2) Xavi was way past his prime and on his way to become a bench option
3) Villa was coming off a leg break
4) Pep wasn't the manager. Our manager was Tito who had fucking cancer

There's like 500 other reasons. Ain't nobody considers 2013 Barca as "prime Barca". Fuck outta here, ya rodent

 

[serghei]

I don't want to get into ref decisions from 2009-11 because there were many decisions against Barcelona that, conveniently, aren't mentioned as much as the ones that went our way. Quite normal I'd say, because everyone hated us back then and wanted to see us get beaten.

The Pep Barca team and cycle ended in 2012 when Pep left. I see no point in discussing what happened after. Some of the key players declined. Puyol was gone, Abidal had health issues often, Xavi declined a lot as he was 33 and his role could not in any way be replaced, David Villa was never the same after he fractured his tibia in late 2011, and he was also in his 30s. Alves was on and off (in fact his crosses had become an inside joke here on the forum) And Pique only produced one elite season after 2011: 2014-15. More like half a season in reality, and that only after Lucho decided to bench some sense into him.

And since Barcelona is a fucked up political club, Barcelona never had the chance to rebuild under Pep, like most EPL sides do. Under the same leadership and following the same principles. Some journalists that were close to Pep hinted at the time that Guardiola wanted to remove some big names that lost motivation. The board overruled him and sided with the players. This makes perfect sense to me.

Anyway, the fact remains that 2009-11 Barcelona team set a huge bar to beat in terms of titles (both club and national team level as the platform from Barcelona was fully adopted by Spain), playing style, domination vs rivals, legend status. All mixed into the same winning formula.

That aside, of course top class current teams will appear. We have City, Liverpool, current and past versions of Madrid, past versions of Bayern. And so on. All of these would've been hard games for any side in history.

 

[serghei]

Haven't read the thread, but I think VVD at his peak has proven to be the perfect modern day centreback. Imagine if we had him in the Guardiola era.

That blip in Milano just doesn't happen.

True.

I'd take peak Van Dijk over peak Pique. I'd also take Alisson and Salah over Valdes and Pedro, ignoring the possibility that Salah might interfere a bit with Messi's area of action.

I'd say that Pique achieved a bit more than Van Dijk though. Probably Van Dijk didn't join the elite level until late in his 20s.

That blip in Milano also doesn't happen with a more experienced version of Pep. That was the worst match as a manager that I remember in 2009-11 period. Mourinho got the best of him.

 

[Windhook]

Fabinho pocketed him in the second leg so badly that he nearly started weeping on the pitch.

Pocketed?

The last person I'd name responsible for the 0-4 defeat is Messi.

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

So many chances for our players to score but ppl gave EV the fault

 

[soul24rage]

I haven't read the whole thread, but there's some massive underestimation of Pedro.

As an individual, Pedro doesn't give too much compared to a Salah, but he brings so much balance to that Barca team, brings great energy and work ethic and is versatile. He was needed to exchange position with Messi and was good enough in the final third. For that 08-12 Barca team, I would take Pedro over Salah anyday.

Pedro is also one of the reasons that helped won Spain the WC as Spain was lacking a vertical threat vs Switzerland in the World Cup 2010 without him and Del Bosques started Pedro ever since.

 

[jamrock]

Every time Barca defenders comes up, temp says the same thing.

C Ronaldo destroyed,

Either Alves, pique, puyol or a combination of them all.

Which is how I know for a fact, he only watched highlights of Barca vs Madrid back in those days.

Because the number of games I watched, where alves for example, had Ronaldo in his pocket, I've lost count.

Highlights don't tell you the entire story bro

It's easy to say Alves is an attack on FB, he isn't a great defender, but the facts on the ground will tell you something different.

Same with pique