Birdy
Senior Member
How is it obvious when Zirkzee was the standout player in Serie A last season for instance?
You jump too early to many biased conclusions.
Learn to hold judgment, and when passing it, be more objective
Premier League 24/25
- Thread starter Messi983
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How is it obvious when Zirkzee was the standout player in Serie A last season for instance?
You jump too early to many biased conclusions.
Learn to hold judgment, and when passing it, be more objective
Maradona37
Well-known member
We will have to agree to disagree. I am not a fan of giving players 'time' when it's abundantly obvious to me it won't change.
You'd probably have advocated giving Schneiderlin, Fred, Herrera 'time' in the past.
Zirkzee is a good example - I think you rate him so much because he's a statistician's dream. 'In theory' he's a quality player, because he is more of a link man (in theory) and describes himself as a 9.5. He appeals to this modern scene of analysing the fuck out of everything with stats. But when you actually WATCH him you see in practice he's nowhere near as good as the theory suggests.
So in a way Zirkzee is a microcosm of what I meant about you being welded to theory, as he's a theorist's dream. But it doesn't work out that way in practice.
As for de Ligt and Mazraoui - the latter is ok but will never be a title-challenging player in England. The former has severe weaknesses which we saw punished today and will continue to be punished. It's always a bad sign when your previous club no longer wants you.
But we can agree to disagree and see who ends up being more in the right.
Maradona37
Well-known member
Who says he was the standout player in Serie A last season? You? And what relevance does that hold.
You're contradicting yourself now because earlier in the thread you're calling other leagues 'farmers leagues' and going on about the PL being different gravy and a huge step up, yet now you're talking about Zirkzee might become a top PL player because he 'stood out' in one of those famrers' leagues...you're contradicting yourself.
And I highly doubt he was THE standout player in Serie A. Maybe by obscure metrics you use or selective YouTube videos.
I have saw people claim this guy is like Firmino. maybe he's a similar style of player to Firmino - but he's miles worse than someone like Firmino, that's the point. It's all theory and as we saw today the theory doesn't work in practice, out there on the pitch.
Guys like Zirkzee are far better in a spreadsheet than on a pitch.
Maradona37
Well-known member
Look at Man City's squad, the players they constantly turn over and the quality they replace them with.
Do you think Zirkzee, Ugarte, Mazraoui and de Ligt can ever compete at that level? I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to see they're not elite level players and never will be. De Ligt for example has already peaked at Ajax and it will never be that good for him ever again.
If these guys were the talents you make them out to be 1 - they wouldn't be being forced out of their old clubs and 2 - better teams than United would be in for them.
Do you think Zirkzee, Ugarte, Mazraoui and de Ligt can ever compete at that level? I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to see they're not elite level players and never will be. De Ligt for example has already peaked at Ajax and it will never be that good for him ever again.
If these guys were the talents you make them out to be 1 - they wouldn't be being forced out of their old clubs and 2 - better teams than United would be in for them.
Maradona37
Well-known member
Mate, you are telling me to be more objective...
I have predicted Man United's struggles and failures every step of the way since 2013. I will be wrong eventually (unless I change and see progress) but I have not been wrong yet. Now some of that was bias true, but if they were good I would admit it. I don't like Real Madrid but I'd be a fool to not admit their excellence as a club.
Bias only goes so far, it amplifies my views but it doesn't change the core views.
You keep saying it's knee-jerk but they've been awful for over a decade, awful under Ten Hag for 18 months, NOTHING is changing, they can't play like a modern team.
If anything they're a club you should take a dim and negative view of as they're still playing that 90s style football you hate. But you defend them because you rate their manager...
I have predicted Man United's struggles and failures every step of the way since 2013. I will be wrong eventually (unless I change and see progress) but I have not been wrong yet. Now some of that was bias true, but if they were good I would admit it. I don't like Real Madrid but I'd be a fool to not admit their excellence as a club.
Bias only goes so far, it amplifies my views but it doesn't change the core views.
You keep saying it's knee-jerk but they've been awful for over a decade, awful under Ten Hag for 18 months, NOTHING is changing, they can't play like a modern team.
If anything they're a club you should take a dim and negative view of as they're still playing that 90s style football you hate. But you defend them because you rate their manager...
Maradona37
Well-known member
Anyway I can't be bothered arguing mate. It's after 10pm and I have a few things to do before bed. I am confident in what I say but time will tell.
This has been a bit heated but you know I like you as a poster. I rate your knowledge and evaluative skills well - my only issue with you is you're too wedded to stats/metrics and theory and let things linger to the point it becomes reactive rather than proactive, because of this. I feel you need to take into more account the more qualitative aspects of football too. Things that can't be measured with numbers.
Peace, friend.
This has been a bit heated but you know I like you as a poster. I rate your knowledge and evaluative skills well - my only issue with you is you're too wedded to stats/metrics and theory and let things linger to the point it becomes reactive rather than proactive, because of this. I feel you need to take into more account the more qualitative aspects of football too. Things that can't be measured with numbers.
Peace, friend.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
Iniesta Ultra
Senior Member
United need a manager who can speak english well.
TenHaram hasn't improved his english one bit since he's been in the UK, he's a poor learner and adapter not just in football.
TenHaram hasn't improved his english one bit since he's been in the UK, he's a poor learner and adapter not just in football.
Maradona37
Well-known member
Just saw that was Loki and I read it as you. I'm getting well past it kid lol.
Fati_Future_BallonDor
Well-known member
tbf, it's not easy to learn and improve english when you dont do it actively...
Birdy
Senior Member
Of course being standout in Serie A is not guarantee for EPL.
EPL is INDEED the best and most competitive league, and to succeed there it takes WAY MORE than any other league. That has always been my position, and it hasn't changed
But being standout in Serie A, given his age, profile, and all that, means he deserves a chance in EPL.
Whether he takes it or not, the jury is still out
As for the players and comparisons with City squad,
players ALWAYS look better than what they really are when they play in team that clicks, and players ALWAYS look worse than they really are when they play it a team that malfunctions
That something like a universal truth in football, with countless examples on either side.
I think you will agree to that
Anyways, not gonna continue this debate. We both got our point across.
Let's resume later in the season with more evidence on how UTD's season is going
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