fergus90
Senior Member
Exactly this. The core of this squad is a real problem.
Quique Setien
- Thread starter FC433
- Start date
Exactly this. The core of this squad is a real problem.
Jakabor
Well-known member
A bum? He is a coach who is hired to coach. You do not have to like your boss at work but you still have to act professional and do the job. Setien, Sarabia etc. are the ones with the tactics and instructions, and that is your job to follow as a player.
You do not act that that because it is unprofessional.
Love Messi, but he is being a twat here.
Also laughable defending the putrid Valverde - a coach they respect because he lets the players walk all over him. What does that say about the players? Fuck that noise. And fuck off with Yes man Valverde.
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I'm sorry mate but this is just an example of natural human psychology. Messi, Suarez, Pique, Alba, Roberto, Rakitic, Busquets etc. have won everything there is to win in club football and the Spanish players have won everything in international football as well. Setien and Sarabia are small fry coaches from midtable Liga clubs with zero silverware to their name. They come in on the back of the unjustified sacking of EV who was a player's manager and immediately tried to change the system and made the players uncomfortable with their practices. Setien and Sarabia do not deserve that kind of treatment, but it is to be expected.
You say "you do not have like your boss at work but you still have to act professional and do the job." What if you've been at the company for over a decade, have won employee of the year multiple times, have made your company millions and earn 10x more than your new "manager" that is coming over from a local start-up? In that scenario do you really think the employee would respect and listen to the manager's demand or will he continue to do things his own way? Whom do you think the CEO would side with when the push came to shove?
I agree the situation is unfortunate and unjustified. There are many ways to solve the problem.
1. Bench a veteran to send a message to the rest. Setien won't do this because he is an old man still in awe at being given a shot at his dream club. Doesn't have it in him. He will try to cling on to the job as long as possible.
2. Sign competition to push the seniors out. Unfortunately almost every transfer since 2015 has been a flop. Coutinho, Dembele, Griezmann, Arthur, Mina, Alcacer, Digne, Gomes etc. are not good enough to naturally phase out the veterans even if they may be in decline.
3. Boot them out of the club. This option is my preference at this point since they have shown they do not have the level to even put up a good point total in the league anymore. Will never happen though.
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Barcilliant
Senior Member
The only thing Shitverde got right was using 442.
The problem with the fans is the want to see 433 and attacking football. With this bunch of old men that's impossible. A defensive 442 or 4231 is the only way to play with these guys. Even then you need to sign a new cb and midfielder. That is why I wanted Allegri. He's calm and would set up the team properly. Plus he actually has a decent cvy. Shitverde and Setien are simply out of their depth. Italian clubs usually do well with older players because they understand space, organization, tactics and defending is an art for them.
433 is a high speed, aggressive formation for younger, hungrier players. These players are going nowhere for the next two seasons so we may as well try and get the best out of them. With our financial mess and Covid we can't sign three to four players.
The problem with the fans is the want to see 433 and attacking football. With this bunch of old men that's impossible. A defensive 442 or 4231 is the only way to play with these guys. Even then you need to sign a new cb and midfielder. That is why I wanted Allegri. He's calm and would set up the team properly. Plus he actually has a decent cvy. Shitverde and Setien are simply out of their depth. Italian clubs usually do well with older players because they understand space, organization, tactics and defending is an art for them.
433 is a high speed, aggressive formation for younger, hungrier players. These players are going nowhere for the next two seasons so we may as well try and get the best out of them. With our financial mess and Covid we can't sign three to four players.
raedkuwait
Senior Member
Of course they liked Shitverde back cause the seniors had it there way, trained when they felt like it, it was a holiday all year for them, and Setein came and saw this sorry ass players dont want to do any thing at all. Tried to change things but he couldnt, the amigos have much more power than him, heck he cant even bench any of them. We need a tough coach who can bench those old fucks, Xavi , luchio , pep.
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
The board wants to please everyone but has no idea how to do so. They want financial success, marketing and titles but they also want to provide entertaining football to please the fans all while keeping the veterans who basically run the club happy.
But it won't work out, they fucked up too much. Valverde was sacked for good reasons and even if he had switched back to 4-4-2 there was no way it ends well. The veterans have just declined too much, looking at Suarez is just sad compared to the player he used to be.
I don't really see a way for them to fix this now, just hope Real sucks even more
Messigician
Senior Member
Announce Valverde
Messi983
Senior Member
People should be aware that whoever the coach is he won't succeed longterm if he'll come to the club and start making drastical changes which would upset key players. Unless this would be a direction the club would decide to go and he would get a full support from the top. But we're not at that point eventhough we should've probably been since 2-3 years ago. Neymar leaving could've been be a good starting point for a rebuild but we decided to go another route. Now if Dembele wouldn't turn out to be injury prone and Coutinho a mental midget our last few years and a future could look much different because in opposite to most people I don't think our other transfers in recent years were really all that bad. But obviously 100m signings not working out for different reasons have set us years back. But even more so did extending contracts to senior players which gave them unlimited power.
The first thing a new coach should do is earn a support and trust of his players by building a good relationship with them and winning (because he'll be gone sooner or later if he won't get results regardless of whatever good things he would've do). So why would any coach come here with an intent to rebuild the team by dropping underperforming and aging players when it's more or less likely he'll be the first one gone? We are all aware changes are needed but they should come from the top. Bartomeu, Abidal&Co. should be the ones to send thank you and good bye letters to Suarez, Busi, Raki,... and let the likes of Pique and Alba (we can't sell them packing before we have their replacements which is also a job for sporting department of the club) also know that their role will change. This would be a step in the right direction and make coaches job easier. No Barca coach has ever had a full autonomy over the transfers so people shouldn't expect a new coach to come in and sell the players he doesn't want (and keep in mind those players might not always be the ones fans think we should sell) and bring the players he wants (and here again, coaches transfer targets will not always be the players fans think we should sign).
People will probably refer to Pep's "clearout" in 2008 but it was already decided before he joined us that Ronaldinho should be gone because the club was affraid of how his unprofessionalism outside of the pitch will affect a young Messi. Pep also wanted to get rid off Eto'o but only succeeded with that after he has won a treble and Laporta would obviously do whatever he would ask at that point even though in retrospective that Eto'o-Ibra swap turned out to be Pep's biggest mistake at the club. So Pep didn't really have that much influence in getting rid of the players before he has proven himself.
On the buying side Lucho (and Unzue who wanted Bravo even after we've already signed MATS) did get his chance to elect between Suarez and Aguero in 2014 (it's more likely we've signed Suarez because he was the one really available though) and we also signed Mathieu on his request. But coaches here don't really have all that much say when it comes to transfers and they have to do with what they get. And that's one of the reasons why many of our signings fail.
Anyway, back to our veterans. Whether it's Valverde, Setien or whoever our next coach will be they should try to stay on their good side for their own and the club good. Valverde pretty much succeeded in getting the most out of this team in his first two seasons. People should go and read posts from summer of 2017 and see what expectations we've had after Neymar's exit and then Dembele and Coutinho's transfer sagas. And when we were clearly outplayed in both Supercopa games against RM. I think most people expected we would be the ones finishing 15-20 points behind RM and not being one game away from having an unbeaten season.
Setien came into an even worse situation. First, it's tougher for every coach taking over during the season as long as the team is still expected to compete for their goals (winning silverware in our case). Second, veterans are a few years older and younger players we have had injury/fitness problems so they couldn't really be seriously counted on. So I'm not blaming Setien for what's currently going on but he did make his mistakes which will eventually cost him his job. And the biggest one was he never really got our senior players on his side. And no coach can ever win without having a support of his players. If he would've get Messi&Co. on his good side and won La Liga and CL this season (I mean we can still do that but realistically our chances are not really good) this would earn him a respect with the players and he could have made some much needed changes next season. And well, hopefully the club would help him by replacing some of the older players with younger ones.
People will say amigos have walked over Valverde and while this is true in some extent I also believe most of them actually respected him and that's why they've defended him publicly. The players were probably also aware deep inside them that they are responsible for Roma and Anfield. Setien tried to do things his way and change some things but he never had a chance to win a "battle" against the veterans. He never earned their respect which is evident from the video posted a few pages back. That said, Messi&Co. are also acting totally unprofessional which is very disappointing to say the least.
To make things worse replacing Setien will give the players even more power and put Setien's successor under more pressure from the first day so from that standpoint I wouldn't mind Setien staying. Any coach is set to fail here until player's power will be limited and eventually fully taken away but this won't happen until they are all gone. Just selling Raki or Vidal won't change anything because they are the least influentual. Suarez and/or Busi should be gone this summer if the club wants to send a serious message that nobody is untouchable. But we know this won't happen so I dont' really care who our coach will be or who we'll buy. I only hope at least younger players like Fati and Trincao will get enough minutes to develop but their playing time will be limited witih the two walking amigos upfront unbenchable and three 100m signings (well, two, since I don't count on Dembele to stay fit) rotating playing outside of their best position so it's probably better to send them on loan for two years to develop in a more healthy environment.
The first thing a new coach should do is earn a support and trust of his players by building a good relationship with them and winning (because he'll be gone sooner or later if he won't get results regardless of whatever good things he would've do). So why would any coach come here with an intent to rebuild the team by dropping underperforming and aging players when it's more or less likely he'll be the first one gone? We are all aware changes are needed but they should come from the top. Bartomeu, Abidal&Co. should be the ones to send thank you and good bye letters to Suarez, Busi, Raki,... and let the likes of Pique and Alba (we can't sell them packing before we have their replacements which is also a job for sporting department of the club) also know that their role will change. This would be a step in the right direction and make coaches job easier. No Barca coach has ever had a full autonomy over the transfers so people shouldn't expect a new coach to come in and sell the players he doesn't want (and keep in mind those players might not always be the ones fans think we should sell) and bring the players he wants (and here again, coaches transfer targets will not always be the players fans think we should sign).
People will probably refer to Pep's "clearout" in 2008 but it was already decided before he joined us that Ronaldinho should be gone because the club was affraid of how his unprofessionalism outside of the pitch will affect a young Messi. Pep also wanted to get rid off Eto'o but only succeeded with that after he has won a treble and Laporta would obviously do whatever he would ask at that point even though in retrospective that Eto'o-Ibra swap turned out to be Pep's biggest mistake at the club. So Pep didn't really have that much influence in getting rid of the players before he has proven himself.
On the buying side Lucho (and Unzue who wanted Bravo even after we've already signed MATS) did get his chance to elect between Suarez and Aguero in 2014 (it's more likely we've signed Suarez because he was the one really available though) and we also signed Mathieu on his request. But coaches here don't really have all that much say when it comes to transfers and they have to do with what they get. And that's one of the reasons why many of our signings fail.
Anyway, back to our veterans. Whether it's Valverde, Setien or whoever our next coach will be they should try to stay on their good side for their own and the club good. Valverde pretty much succeeded in getting the most out of this team in his first two seasons. People should go and read posts from summer of 2017 and see what expectations we've had after Neymar's exit and then Dembele and Coutinho's transfer sagas. And when we were clearly outplayed in both Supercopa games against RM. I think most people expected we would be the ones finishing 15-20 points behind RM and not being one game away from having an unbeaten season.
Setien came into an even worse situation. First, it's tougher for every coach taking over during the season as long as the team is still expected to compete for their goals (winning silverware in our case). Second, veterans are a few years older and younger players we have had injury/fitness problems so they couldn't really be seriously counted on. So I'm not blaming Setien for what's currently going on but he did make his mistakes which will eventually cost him his job. And the biggest one was he never really got our senior players on his side. And no coach can ever win without having a support of his players. If he would've get Messi&Co. on his good side and won La Liga and CL this season (I mean we can still do that but realistically our chances are not really good) this would earn him a respect with the players and he could have made some much needed changes next season. And well, hopefully the club would help him by replacing some of the older players with younger ones.
People will say amigos have walked over Valverde and while this is true in some extent I also believe most of them actually respected him and that's why they've defended him publicly. The players were probably also aware deep inside them that they are responsible for Roma and Anfield. Setien tried to do things his way and change some things but he never had a chance to win a "battle" against the veterans. He never earned their respect which is evident from the video posted a few pages back. That said, Messi&Co. are also acting totally unprofessional which is very disappointing to say the least.
To make things worse replacing Setien will give the players even more power and put Setien's successor under more pressure from the first day so from that standpoint I wouldn't mind Setien staying. Any coach is set to fail here until player's power will be limited and eventually fully taken away but this won't happen until they are all gone. Just selling Raki or Vidal won't change anything because they are the least influentual. Suarez and/or Busi should be gone this summer if the club wants to send a serious message that nobody is untouchable. But we know this won't happen so I dont' really care who our coach will be or who we'll buy. I only hope at least younger players like Fati and Trincao will get enough minutes to develop but their playing time will be limited witih the two walking amigos upfront unbenchable and three 100m signings (well, two, since I don't count on Dembele to stay fit) rotating playing outside of their best position so it's probably better to send them on loan for two years to develop in a more healthy environment.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
They wont put it aside as will keep dropping points and then be eliminated from the CL.
There is an arrogance in the Barca teams amigos that they are still the best in world and that teams slow football that suits them is the way to go.
Messi, Pique, Suarez, Alba etc will blame the Barca coaches, the referees, luck and coronavirus before they ever realise that the issue is the age of squad and power they hold.
The board are terrified of the amigos and Messi in particular and will take the option to coast the next season with those older players wielding axe in dressing room.
In that video MATS stares at Messi as if seen it all before. The likes of him and FDJ must look at this squad and power balance and despair.
Those amigos are the reason Barca want Neymar... they virtually told the club to sign him.
Messi will be the reason Barca are contemplating paying 111m for Lautaro.
It is an absolute joke how much influence the seniors have and it is killing the club and board facilitate it as scared of the alternative.
The biggest advantage Real have over Barca at moment is a coach with the final say and no one is above him or the board.
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behindbrowneyes
Well-known member
Of course Su?rez doesn't like Sarabia's ways. Usually Su?rez is the one yelling at the players.
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