Real Madrid (old thread)

[Hamzah]

you are wrong meta, barca and inter were quite evenly matched, so superior tactics and mental preperation won the match for inter, its simple.

 

[Metaphysical]

That's the most flawed logic ( consider it a praise that i called it logic .. ) i've heard and coming from you .. it's ..well lets say i understand your hidden agenda

if it's down to players.. why hasn't Argentina won the WC ? obviously they are world class player
Why Barca didn't win everything , why Real failed to win anything after Del Bosque left
cause u know it's down to players.

for the players to reach the "WC " statues they need first to be managed by a WC manager.. otherwise they are crap

Managers are more important than players.. but WC players with a crap manager and they will fail.. but average footballers with WC manager and they will shit..
player don't decide games.. they execute their managers tactics to win games , and Pep say that cause he is humble and give a moral boost to his players.. any 2 year old will tell u it's down to Pep u won , the difference between Messi Barca and Messi Argentina is there .. or CR club level and International level after Scolari left..

i would expect this from the retard but not you Meta..

you are a tragic figure.

players don't decide games? yes they do you nincompoop.

think of a football match as an image: managers draw the outline, then the players colour it in.

you can't have one without the other, and while one is essential for the basic structure of something it's utterly lifeless without the colour.

players are more important than managers. the expressive beauty of football is found in the imagination and ability of the players. they are the true artists.

valdano would agree with me.

 

[Hamzah]

but if it is the top level and players are evenly matched, you need a manager to give you the mental and tactical advantage. like mourinho did when he beat us.

in games where the players are unmatched, then the players can win it without managers help.

but when there is a massive difference, the manager must use tactics to make up for the lack of good players.


so there is no clear rule for this

 

[Super Pippo]

A SINGLE player though Meta, not all the players. A single player, especially a full back, is never more influential than a manager, which is what that guy was spouting.

 

[barcetia]

yeah that's what winded up everybody. he was clearly saying that maicon is more influential to real tha mourinho

 

[Hamzah]

who was?

 

[Metaphysical]

Barca vs. Inter is probably THE worst example you could give. That was almost all Mourinho, Inter had no business beating you.

but it wasn't!

don't you see the massive flaw in your argument?

the players were BRILLIANT. that is why inter won.

do you think mourinho told cucho and zanetti some secret voodoo way to mark messi? or do you think they, as players, knew messi and his tendencies through their argentine links and executed their marking jobs to a T?

now, I don't doubt mourinho motivated them superbly and gave them a great framework to apply themselves in, but they executed his gameplan perfectly.

so many teams have come against us with great gameplans only for us to shatter them because their players slipped, made mistakes, or just didn't handle us well enough.

inter's players were damn-near flawless against us. and while there were managerial issues at play, it was inter's players and their amazing performances that beat us. had they not played as well as they did, we'd have triumphed over mourinho's tactics just as we've triumphed over dozens of other bus parkers, mourinho included, in the past.

You mean thanks to an absurdly biased referee.

you mean like the refereeing that knocked us out in 09/10?

yup.

what goes around comes around. it went for us in 08/09 and against us in 09/10.

them's the breaks.

A SINGLE player though Meta, not all the players. A single player, especially a full back, is never more influential than a manager, which is what that guy was spouting.

well obviously that is wrong. a single player isn't more important than a manager.

 

[Hamzah]

meta- mourinho's gameplan was the real reason, his formation meant that messi ran into three inter defenders everytime he got the ball.

 

[Beast]

you are a tragic figure.

players don't decide games? yes they do you nincompoop.

think of a football match as an image: managers draw the outline, then the players colour it in.

you can't have one without the other, and while one is essential for the basic structure of something it's utterly lifeless without the colour.

players are more important than managers. the expressive beauty of football is found in the imagination and ability of the players. they are the true artists.

valdano would agree with me.

Valdano wouldn't agree with you ..
It's not like we are saying managers will come down and play
Managers can make average footballers play great and others make great footballers play rubbish .
point :
Messi -Maradona-Argentina vs Barca
CR - Quieroz-Portugal Vs Real or United

vs
Podolski-Lowe-Germany vs Koln/B Munich
Klose same case .

U can enter X or Y .. it's down to the manager to make those players world beater/ game changers ..u name it , the manager draw and outline.. the players are just colors.. some are awesome colors some are rubbish
We can sit here and name over 100 players who are rubbish anywhere outside their club system.. like Arsenal for example.. look @ Cesc,Van Persie ,Clichy,Sagna outside Papa Arsene
they just look better under him ..

but it wasn't!

don't you see the massive flaw in your argument?

the players were BRILLIANT. that is why inter won.

do you think mourinho told cucho and zanetti some secret voodoo way to mark messi? or do you think they, as players, knew messi and his tendencies through their argentine links and executed their marking jobs to a T?

.

see that's the massive flaw in your argument.. u are just keen to discredit Jose u disregard any sort of facts
Actually the players said he gave them the expected moves from Messi and what to do in each scenario from Barca..
Wesley and co all praised how he gave them every small detail about the game .. cause that's how Jose prepare for every game (same as Rafa ) ..
so yeah he did tell them what to expect from Messi and co ..

so that's where there is a big flaw into your argument

 

[Abaddon]

but it wasn't!

don't you see the massive flaw in your argument?

the players were BRILLIANT. that is why inter won.

Some played exceptional, most just carried out the role Mourinho designed for them, and he really wasn't asking exceptional stuff from those guys if you look at each role individually. There were very few individual standouts for Inter in general (Sneijder, Milito come to mind), it just worked perfectly as a whole. The credit goes to Mourinho for that.

In Barca's case, the players role is bigger and the manager's role is smaller in the sense that they do ask exceptional things from their players. There aren't 3 players who could bring what Xavi, Iniesta and Messi give you. Most of that Inter squad was perfectly replaceable.

do you think mourinho told cucho and zanetti some secret voodoo way to mark messi? or do you think they, as players, knew messi and his tendencies through their argentine links and executed their marking jobs to a T?

No single player shut him down, Mourinho did a great job designing that defense to keep the spaces very, VERY tight.

now, I don't doubt mourinho motivated them superbly and gave them a great framework to apply themselves in, but they executed his gameplan perfectly.

yes, in big part because that gameplan wasn't asking any extraordinary things of his players. And how can you not give credit to a manager when players execute his gameplan to perfection?

so many teams have come against us with great gameplans only for us to shatter them because their players slipped, made mistakes, or just didn't handle us well enough.

Look, nobody is denying that you need some really good players to get far. And some luck. And even then you can lose, cause a team like barca is just that damn good. But the manager remains a big factor, and Mourinho gave them the best odds possible to win that tie.

inter's players were damn-near flawless against us. and while there were managerial issues at play, it was inter's players and their amazing performances that beat us. had they not played as well as they did, we'd have triumphed over mourinho's tactics just as we've triumphed over dozens of other bus parkers, mourinho included, in the past.

Inter hardly played you off the field. They let you have the ball where it did not hurt them and denied it where they didn't want you to have it. And they got what they wanted to get on the offensive end. Did they win the tie because of the individual brilliance of a player? No, as a team they denied you and again, that's on the manager.

And that wasn't just a regular parked bus Meta, you know that.

you mean like the refereeing that knocked us out in 09/10?

yup.

what goes around comes around. it went for us in 08/09 and against us in 09/10.

them's the breaks.

sad part is you actually mean that.

 

[House of Flies]

stupid argument meta.

if players decided the matches then argentina would have been world champions.

coaches >>> players...

 

[Hamzah]

you know you are wrong meta

 

[Metaphysical]

I'm not discrediting josé ffs. cast your mind back a year and I was insistent that he was a world-class manager (he still is, we're arguing the importance of managers in general not the importance of josé) and you were doubting his ability, saying he was made to look good by the PL, etc. he proved you wrong and me right by managing inter to the CL. he gave the club a better framework than they have had in a long time, and that's really what they've been lacking all these years. but the players still had to execute his plan perfectly.

and telling them his movements... that's not "voodoo"... that's not a magical way to stop him. I could tell you every way messi is gonna move if I wanted to. does that mean you would then be able to mark messi? does that make me a mourinho-like genius? no. the players executed josé's plans brilliantly and THAT is why inter won.

josé is brilliant at what he does, one of the best in the world. so is pep. so is capello. etc.

but that doesn't mean they're more important than the players on the pitch.

you bringing up messi and CR's woes with their NT's doesn't prove anything because I'm not saying the managers mean nothing, I'm saying the players mean more.

stupid argument meta.

if players decided the matches then argentina would have been world champions.

coaches >>> players...

that's not my argument.

next time you wanna wade into an argument midway through, try actually knowing what it is first.

 

[House of Flies]

that just seems like a desperate attempt to save your argument.

since the beginning of this game, coaches decided outcomes of the matches by their tactics... no matter how well the players execute the system, it wouldnt win matches if the system is wrong. we have seen this everywhere.

tactics decide matches hands down.

 

[Metaphysical]

Some played exceptional, most just carried out the role Mourinho designed for them,

everything else you said is irrelevant. this is the key issue.

there is no "just" in terms of carrying out the role.

they carried out the role they were given flawlessly.

whether they were asked to do something exceptional or do something simple, they did it. often you can be asked to do something simple, screw it up, and then everything collapses. a good example is vidic vs. us in the CL final. simple task, shepard eto'o to the byline. vidic moves a half-step too far forward and bam, eto'o has cut inside him and scored.

players executing their tasks is what makes the difference in the world of football.

that's not to say the managers are irrelevant, of course they are important, very important... but not moreso than the players.

never.

that just seems like a desperate attempt to save your argument.

read this (emphasis added):

my boy dali says some crazy things, but he has a very good point about managers. with a (more or less) level field of players, they aren't more important than players.

obviously when you have some part-timers playing world cup winners (or other mismatches), the coach will have to help compensate that difference in quality with tactics. but in, say, barca vs. inter... yes the managers are important, yes their contributions are crucial, but it's the players who win and lose the game. all a manager has to do is not be a complete idiot and trust his players to get it done.

the greatest sides in history are full of players who were given the freedom to lead on the pitch and are remembered for their players, not their managers. they were sides that had freedom of expression.

managers perhaps affect 90% of their team's performance, but it's the shallow end. that final 10%, the deep end, is the players. and while they affect less than their managers, they affect the most important part - the actual playing of the match. mourinho, for all his brilliance, came within a diego milito injury of being the new bayern leverkusen. for all his genius and posturing it was four moments of brilliance from milito that won the treble. for all pep's genius we only won the treble thanks to that little pale guy from la mancha and that one kick he took at stamford bridge.

players decide games, and the best managers will tell you that. pep's constantly deflecting praise from him to the players.

then either comprehend my argument or go away and bother someone else.