Real Madrid (old thread)

[House of Flies]

everything else you said is irrelevant. this is the key issue.

there is no "just" in terms of carrying out the role.

they carried out the role they were given flawlessly.

whether they were asked to do something exceptional or do something simple, they did it. often you can be asked to do something simple, screw it up, and then everything collapses. a good example is vidic vs. us in the CL final. simple task, shepard eto'o to the byline. vidic moves a half-step too far forward and bam, eto'o has cut inside him and scored.

players executing their tasks is what makes the difference in the world of football.

that's not to say the managers are irrelevant, of course they are important, very important... but not moreso than the players.

never.



read this (emphasis added):



then either comprehend my argument or go away and bother someone else.

what is your argument? you say that players are more important than the coach (who design the system) and i am saying that if the system is wrong then the players performances in it would be null and void. did i say players are shit? No. did i say that ones who design the system are always more important than the ones playing in it? yess..

have clear thoughts for once... all that cholesterol in your system is blocking access of blood to your brain.

 

[Abaddon]

everything else you said is irrelevant. this is the key issue.

there is no "just" in terms of carrying out the role.

they carried out the role they were given flawlessly.

whether they were asked to do something exceptional or do something simple, they did it. often you can be asked to do something simple, screw it up, and then everything collapses.

I agree about the importance of players carrying out their role fully and accurately, and yes some players are simply incapable of doing so. But surely you will appreciate that what the manager asks from them influences this? Certainly, asking players to do A when the ball is in zone X and B when it is in zone Y etc isn't an easy thing to carry out, but there are still a good deal of players who could do that pretty successfully. That is why he gets so much credit for it, because the way he designed that team, he did it with very few truely exceptional players.

Now, how many players could successfully carry out the roles of Xavi, Messi, Iniesta to name a few? In that case you are relying almost exclusively on the player's individual talent, cause there is no alternative.

 

[Raed]

stupid argument meta.

if players decided the matches then argentina would have been world champions.

coaches >>> players...

There is a difference between a nutjob like Maradona and a decent manager who recognizes the team's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Metaphysical]

what is your argument? you say that players are more important than the coach (who design the system) and i am saying that if the system is wrong then the players performances in it would be null and void. did i say players are shit? No. did i say that ones who design the system are always more important than the ones playing in it? yess..

have clear thoughts for once... all that cholesterol in your system is blocking access of blood to your brain.

god you're dense.

if an architect designs a beautiful building and the builders do a shit job of building it, then the building will probably collapse.

if a musician composes a beautiful piece of music and the orchestra do an awful job of playing it then the piece will sound shit.

etc. etc. etc.

the system is important, the execution of it moreso.

now please, go away.

 

[barcetia]

excellent analogy.

 

[Abaddon]

god you're dense.

if an architect designs a beautiful building and the builders do a shit job of building it, then the building will probably collapse.

if a musician composes a beautiful piece of music and the orchestra do an awful job of playing it then the piece will sound shit.

etc. etc. etc.

the system is important, the execution of it moreso.

now please, go away.

Actually... lets put it way simplistic

If the design is good, then:
1. the builders do a good job and the house is good
2. the builders do a shit job and the house is shit

if the design sucks, then:
1. the builders do a good job and the house is shit
2. the builders do a shit job and the house is shit

a bad design makes a bad house, regardless of the execution, so de facto the design is more important than the execution.

Now I get what you are saying, you can still win games with a bad gameplan if the players are good enough, but you will never maximize your chances, and at the deep stages of the CL, that is what is needed to win. As your design gets more demanding, the importance of those executing increases (cfr. my barca example).

 

[Metaphysical]

There is a difference between a nutjob like Maradona and a decent manager who recognizes the team's strengths and weaknesses.

exactly.

I agree about the importance of players carrying out their role fully and accurately, and yes some players are simply incapable of doing so. But surely you will appreciate that what the manager asks from them influences this?

obviously.

as I've said repeatedly, the manager designs the system (and he has to understand his players and design a system they can function in) but the player has to execute. yes the manager deserves immense credit for organising and training his players, but the game is played on the pitch. regardless of what the manager does or does not do, the final say is with the players.

I can't sum it up any better than this:

Actually... lets put it way simplistic

If the design is good, then:
1. the builders do a good job and the house is good
2. the builders do a shit job and the house is shit

if the design sucks, then:
1. the builders do a good job and the house is shit
2. the builders do a shit job and the house is shit

a bad design makes a bad house, regardless of the execution, so de facto the design is more important than the execution.

well when you break it down like that then the building example doesn't work as an analogy for football.

the musical piece does, however, because it's art. and even if the design is shit you can still get individual flourishes and artistic brilliance shining through.

Now I get what you are saying, you can still win games with a bad gameplan if the players are good enough, but you will never maximize your chances, and at the deep stages of the CL, that is what is needed to win. As your design gets more demanding, the importance of those executing increases (cfr. my barca example).

you can win with ability or you can win with a gameplan. equally you can lose with ability (no gameplan) or you can lose with a gameplan (not enough ability/execution). but in essence; the actual game is played on the pitch by the players, which is why they're the most important.

 

[Hamzah]

but mourinho gave them the roles to suit how each player plays, another manager wouldn't have played that system and the players wouldn't have all fitted in the system perfectly and wouldn't have played well and inter would have lost.

 

[jamrock]

managers deserve the credit for every thing that happens behind the scene, the training, the tactics and all that stuff.

but for those 90 minutes on the pitch for the MOST part they don't mean shit.

for those pointing out, the ronaldo and messi for national team business, may i remind you that the very same man that is coaching ronaldo at Portugal is the same man that use to coach him at man utd.

for those who will say SAF is the manager, everyone knows carlos plays a huge part in man utd tactics and game plan.

So as i see it they don't play as well for the national team, not because of their managers, but because the players they play with at club level are better.

as for the Inter vs barca game, if barca had not had to travel over 10000 miles by bus, all of jose tactics would have been for shit because they would have gotten a result, because they simply are the better team and have the better players.

the record stands at 2-1-1 in the CL that year.

so to conclude managers don't mean shit for MOST of those critical 90 minutes.

 

[Hamzah]

but they players would be shit during those 90 minutes on the pitch if the previous week preperation didn't happen. you don't just show up and because you are better you win, if the other team has some ability you would be beaten.

 

[House of Flies]

I think of football like a war. Regardless of those 90 mins, its the better general that wins the war. When you have a crappy general leading a good army, you might win but it would be a Pyrrhic victory.

However, history is littered with examples of armies which were supposed to dominate losing to others because of generals that led them. This is what football is. It doesnt matter how the 1 on 1 battles between soldiers happen because in the grand scale of things, a bad leader is always a bad omen. Bad leader prepares poorly, leads poorly, and gives instructions poorly. Of course, luck has its part as well hence nullifying jamrock's argument.

Its alright though. People who actually havent actually played the sport on a competitive level would disagree with this, almost everytime.

 

[Beast]

managers deserve the credit for every thing that happens behind the scene, the training, the tactics and all that stuff.

but for those 90 minutes on the pitch for the MOST part they don't mean shit.

for those pointing out, the ronaldo and messi for national team business, may i remind you that the very same man that is coaching ronaldo at Portugal is the same man that use to coach him at man utd.

for those who will say SAF is the manager, everyone knows carlos plays a huge part in man utd tactics and game plan.

So as i see it they don't play as well for the national team, not because of their managers, but because the players they play with at club level are better.

as for the Inter vs barca game, if barca had not had to travel over 10000 miles by bus, all of jose tactics would have been for shit because they would have gotten a result, because they simply are the better team and have the better players.

the record stands at 2-1-1 in the CL that year.

so to conclude managers don't mean shit for MOST of those critical 90 minutes.

Wrong there..
first it's all SAF tactics , Q is his no 2 and we all know SAF is a dictator so it's not like he will do an awful job without him since he won before and after he left
.. Queiroz is responsible for the defensive training which again has no direct relation to CR game..
As Meta will point out.. Portugal was awesome defensively but crap going forward , it's not his thing... he is a truly bad manager and we know this first hand when we collapsed like toy soldiers when he coached us in 03 .

managers do a lot within the 90 minutes ffs
.. without a manager changing tactics when you are down or move X or Y to the right the team can easily loose , a manager who is not on his feet for 90 minutes guiding the team player from the side anything said before the game can easily be forgotten .
that's why u see Pep screaming and shouting or calling Ibra telling him to move his ass (see the famous Picture of Jose behind Pep when he is talking to Ibra during the CL game ) ..
If Pep didn't bring in Bojan for Ibra you wouldn't even score .. yeah they don't so shit for 90 minutes they never take notes , scream and players to move here or there or stay @ the back or move upfront or take a defender for an attacker.. u know cause Players are the only one that matters for 90 minutes

I'm surprised by the lack of basic tactical knowledge of the game around the forum , it's really shocking .. football is not Pro-evo

@ Ward .. Great analogy

 

[jamrock]

the changes managers make during the game means little to nothing 90% of the time, which is way when a manager change actually affects the games, everyone wax lyrical about it because its such a rarity.

which is way i said most of the time.

screaming and making notes doesn't do much to affect the course of the game.

Queiroz played a huge role at Man U, which is way when he left man utd feel so far behind arsenal and why SAF was so desperate to get him back.

2003 league champions with Querioz, 2004 15 points behind arsenal

2004-2008
3 leagues and 1 CL.

 

[Raed]

Why go through all that headache when the first half is the player's half and the second is the manager's half?

 

[Hamzah]

you are wrong.