Summer Olympics Paris - 2024

[serghei]

If you have XY chromosomes you are at least in part male. It doesn't matter of what gender she identifies with.

 

[ajnotkeith]

If you have XY chromosomes you are at least in part male.

There are natural conditions where it's sometimes not as simple as that. Of course, nobody has confirmed what medical evaluations were done on her, but one example is androgen insensitivity syndrome (you are born with male chromosomes but your body is unresponsive to testosterone and can't use it, so you end up developing as female). In those cases, despite the XY chromosomes, you experience little developmental difference from a female, as your body cannot respond to testosterone either partially or completely. In other words your hormonal development is essentially completely as that of a female and it's a natural condition. Rare but sometimes happens and very likely underreported.

What we do know is she isn't trans. She wouldn't be able to receive such care in Algeria and there are pictures of her from a young age clearly showing her as a girl.

 

[serghei]

Yea, it doesn't matter for me if she is trans or not. She is something different than a normal woman, and she should not be competing vs normal women.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Yea, it doesn't matter for me if she is trans or not. She is something different than a normal woman, and she should not be competing vs normal women.

She is a normal woman... nothing would be significantly different about her development her whole life and she would experience no advantage from testosterone.

You would identify her as a man even though her body wouldn't be able to use testosterone? How does that make any sense?

 

[serghei]

She is a normal woman... nothing would be significantly different about her development her whole life and she would experience no advantage from testosterone.

You would identify her as a man even though her body wouldn't be able to use testosterone? How does that make any sense?

I don't have to identify her as a man. She is not a man either. She is a special case, that probably, unfortunately, has no place in either women or men's pro sports.

I identify her as a woman, born with a rare condition that should make her ineligible for women sports.

She is NOT a normal woman btw. That much is clear. Of course she experienced advantages from high levels of testosterone.

 

[delancey]

she (he?) was disqualified from the 2023 World Champions in New Delhi due to having elevated testosterone levels. Allowing someone with male chromosomes to fight against biological females is something only the far-left would dream up.

Biological males should compete against biological males.
Biological females should compete against biological females.
Trans should compete against trans. If a female is born with male chromosomes, I suppose it would only be fair to allow this individual to compete against other trans candidates. It is a special case, as said athlete is neither a biological male nor a biological female.

The only thing controversial here is allowing an athlete with both male and female traits to compete against female athletes. Then again, if the athletes really cared, they’d speak out against said unfairness and political correctness. As @Loki said, we get what we tolerate.

 

[ajnotkeith]

she (he?) was disqualified from the 2023 World Champions in New Delhi due to having elevated testosterone levels. Allowing someone with male chromosomes to fight against biological females is something only the far-left would dream up.

Biological males should compete against biological males.
Biological females should compete against biological females.
Trans should compete against trans. If a female is born with male chromosomes, I suppose it would only be fair to allow this individual to compete against other trans candidates. It is a special case, as said athlete is neither a biological male nor a biological female.

The only thing controversial here is allowing an athlete with both male and female traits to compete against female athletes. Then again, if the athletes really cared, they’d speak out against said unfairness and political correctness. As @Loki said, we get what we tolerate.

And if their development is entirely female despite this?

 

[serghei]

And if their development is entirely female despite this?

How is one person living her life as a female gonna change the fact that genetically, the body has male traits, and in this particular subject, genetical advantages?

 

[ajnotkeith]

I don't have to identify her as a man. She is not a man either. She is a special case, that probably, unfortunately, has no place in either women or men's pro sports.

I identify her as a woman, born with a rare condition that should make her ineligible for women sports.

She is NOT a normal woman btw. That much is clear. Of course she experienced advantages from high levels of testosterone.

If you would read my responses in full you would read that I gave an example of a condition where XY people are completely unresponsive to testosterone. So people with that condition (I'm not saying she does or doesn't have it) would not experience any advantage as they can't use the elevated testosterone at all.

It is a proven condition with clear diagnostic criteria and has been linked directly to a gene mutation so not hypothetical or clinical guess from doctors either.

 

[serghei]

If you would read my responses in full you would read that I gave an example of a condition where XY people are completely unresponsive to testosterone. So people with that condition (I'm not saying she does or doesn't have it) would not experience any advantage as they can't use the elevated testosterone at all.

It is a proven condition with clear diagnostic criteria and has been linked directly to a gene mutation so not hypothetical or clinical guess from doctors either.

So you think the male-like power and the presence of Y chromosome and high testosterone are coincidences? That power is not related at all to her genetics?

One look at a picture and she looks half man, half female. That's obviously the effects of testosterone on the body.

The condition you describe could be real, but by all probabilities, the Algerian boxer is responsive to high testosterone.

 

[ajnotkeith]

So you think the male-like power and the presence of Y chromosome and high testosterone are coincidence?

That is where the debate is... it still isn't clear to me she is some super powerful force given she has already lost 9 times in her amateur career.

Its unclear if this gives her any advantage but if it doesn't give any hormonal advantage I don't think you can prohibit from gender divided sport on that basis. Sport is full of genetic advantages and unless its determined she benefits from male like development I don't think she should be banned.

That is for the experts and endocrinologists to study her body and give their opinion. Right now I don't see how you could possibly have enough information to comment given the clear scientific evidence that in rare cases XY can develop as women.

 

[ajnotkeith]

One look at a picture and she looks half man, half female. That's obviously the effects of testosterone on the body.

The condition you describe could be real, but by all probabilities, the Algerian boxer is responsive to high testosterone.

I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong. She could benefit from it. I'm saying we haven't been provided near enough medical information to comment and its not entirely clear if she is really such an incredibly powerful boxer.

 

[serghei]

Yeah, I don't think that flies. The signs tell the story. Don't buy the unresponsive to testosterone, but effects of testosterone are all clear
on the body instantly.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Yeah, I don't think that flies. The signs tell the story. Don't buy the unresponsive to testosterone, but effects of testosterone are all clear
on the body instantly.

That isn't exactly clear for me either. She isn't particularly muscular or built and I have seen much more muscular biological women and furthermore much more muscular female boxers. Her build looks very standard for a female boxer.

It's only her face that you could argue seems kind of masculine but a lot of women look like that.

 

[Loki]

The feminist movement is shite these days too. Kind of hard to concede for them just how much naturally stronger the male genes are.

Because they're confused. Their minds are programmed on the traditional "white misogynistic man attacks women's rights" argument. Now their brain have a compilation error, when other men using their movement and arguments to get themselves advantages in sports.