Thiago Translantara

[serghei]

We were doing great without Thiago, because we had Xavi, Iniesta and Rakitić. Xavi is no longer here so none of us really have any clue about how we'll be doing with only Rafinha and Sergi Roberto as backups until January. Or with Arda later.

Xavi was hardly a key part last season.

 

[Trickykid]

Yeah, if only we had Thiago now...


... We'd either be nervous he'd leave because of lack of minutes, or he'd be displacing a key midfielder, in which case I doubt we'd be reigning treble winners.

Nah, there's absolutely no need for Thiago at the moment.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Xavi was hardly a key part last season.

I disagree. I don't remember the exact occasions, but I remember there were at least a few times when Xavi was subbed on the momentum changed/improved in our favor. In my opinion Xavi was clutch in stabilizing the midfield when it was chaotic.

With regard to Thiago, I am not one of his biggest fans and I am still quite bitter that he left us, but I still think he can help us. We are still lacking creativity in the midfield, something Thiago can provide.

 

[Stric]

Xavi was hardly a key part last season.

He wasn't key in the sense that he was a starter, but take away his minutes and replace them with Rafinha and the story is wide open.

 

[serghei]

With regard to Thiago, I am not one of his biggest fans and I am still quite bitter that he left us, but I still think he can help us. We are still lacking creativity in the midfield, something Thiago can provide.

I don't think we need midfield creativity at the cost of workrate and defensive cover. Our best tactic at this point in time is to not spend too much time passing the ball around in midfield areas, but, instead, look to engage Messi, Neymar and Suarez as fast as possible. To more time on the ball we give to the MSN, the more chances we have to win matches, and eventually trophies. It's not as special as Pep's Barca, but it's damn effective, won't you say? We finally evolved from Pep's Barca and now we are looking to come back to it? Please, no. Thiago is as fragile physically as one gets in top football, you think he'll be the player who will win the ball back or secure the right flank because Messi rarely drops back and Alves goes up a lot? No. He was a mess on Camp Nou because he is very weak defensively and a team like Barca (and also a team like Bayern) forces you to make sure you don't neglect the defensive aspect of midfield-play (very important). So, IMO, if I were a coach at Barcelona, I would put 3 midfielders who are very good defensively behind MSN, the so-called ball winners. Players like Busi, Rakitic, Turan, Pogba, Vidal, Javi Martinez. Each and everyone of them must be defensively adept.

Take Iniesta, he was basically converted from a classic AM, even winger at times, into a ball winner and a more tactical player. I've never seen Iniesta give so much in terms of effort, and not to say I've seen him tackle a lot, battle players in physical duels (yep, Iniesta going physical, I've seen it happen!). Says a lot about the changing that happened at Barca this season. Because we are not as desperate to keep the ball at all costs, we needed to add a new dimension about our game, and that dimension refers directly to being able to defend better and absorb pressure better. That was added with better fitness, a little less fluidity in our game (our game is more rigid, more positional, more disciplined -- at the cost of less creativity), different profile players in midfield. Rakitic was a perfect buy and well though in advance. Lucho knew what he wanted to play since day 1, he knew that the teams biggest strenght is the front trio, so he made the whole team work for that trio. Our midfield right now has basically 2 main duties. Get the ball back and pass it to Messi, Neymar and Suarez mostly. The pass that usually finds MSN is not decisive, because the MSN is not only a scoring machine, but also a creative force inside the team. They not only score goals, but they create them as well. Why don't the midfielders do that? Because they don't play as advanced and are used more as defensive cover.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I don't think we need midfield creativity at the cost of workrate and defensive cover. Our best tactic at this point in time is to not spend too much time passing the ball around in midfield areas, but, instead, look to engage Messi, Neymar and Suarez as fast as possible. To more time on the ball we give to the MSN, the more chances we have to win matches, and eventually trophies. It's not as special as Pep's Barca, but it's damn effective, won't you say? We finally evolved from Pep's Barca and now we are looking to come back to it? Please, no. Thiago is as fragile physically as one gets in top football, you think he'll be the player who will win the ball back or secure the right flank because Messi rarely drops back and Alves goes up a lot? No. He was a mess on Camp Nou because he is very weak defensively and a team like Barca (and also a team like Bayern) forces you to make sure you don't neglect the defensive aspect of midfield-play (very important). So, IMO, if I were a coach at Barcelona, I would put 3 midfielders who are very good defensively behind MSN, the so-called ball winners. Players like Busi, Rakitic, Turan, Pogba, Vidal, Javi Martinez. Each and everyone of them must be defensively adept.

I just don't like the idea of relying too much on MSN to create and do everything, attacking wise. If they are nullified we are pretty much done.

 

[Truthist]

I just don't like the idea of relying too much on MSN to create and do everything, attacking wise. If they are nullified we are pretty much done.

True but it's hard to stop all three on any given day. Besides we do see moments of creativity from Alves,Iniesta and Rakitic.

 

[serghei]

I just don't like the idea of relying too much on MSN to create and do everything, attacking wise. If they are nullified we are pretty much done.

You see the problem is that this idea brought us the treble. It's the easy way of playing and, at this point, it doesn't need to be complicated. Let's just hope the MSN continues to click, they don't get injured, and we collect trophies until both Messi and Suarez get old. When the MSN is gone, we will either buy another MSN or change our style again. It's the life of the team. Barcelona is meant to be succesful now. It got beyond La Masia, catalan nationalism, tiki-taka. It's gone globally. It's everyones Barcelona and we need to accept this because it is a fact. We're more like Real Madrid than we want to accept, not just economically, but in terms of popularity, success and so on.

 

[Luftstalag14]

You see the problem is that this idea brought us the treble. It's the easy way of playing and, at this point, it doesn't need to be complicated. Let's just hope the MSN continues to click, they don't get injured, and we collect trophies until both Messi and Suarez get old. When the MSN is gone, we will either buy another MSN or change our style again. It's the life of the team. Barcelona is meant to be succesfull now. It got beyond La Masia, catalan nationalism, tiki-taka. It's gone globally now. It's everyones Barcelona and we need to accept this. We're more like Real Madrid than we want to accept, not just economically, but in terms of popularity success and so on.

Sorry serghei, I think such a view is very shortsighted. MSN was very successful last season, but there is no guarantee they will continue to be so in the coming seasons. Messi and Suarez are getting older. Teams will start developing plans to figure them out and have them in check, despite the fact that it will be very hard for them to do so. We need to have a Plan B, if any one or two of MSN are injured, what do we do? We should hope for the best and plan for the worst.

I am not even questioning the effectiveness of MSN, my original point is they are great, let's not overburden them and provide them with some support from the midfield.

Also, I don't think we can just buy another MSN.

 

[serghei]

Sorry serghei, I think such a view is very shortsighted. MSN was very successful last season, but there is no guarantee they will continue to be so in the coming seasons. Messi and Suarez are getting older. Teams will start developing plans to figure them out and have them in check, despite the fact that it will be very hard for them to do so. We need to have a Plan B, if any one or two of MSN are injured, what do we do? We should hope for the best and plan for the worst.

I am not even questioning the effectiveness of MSN, my original point is they are great, let's not overburden them and provide them with some support from the midfield.

Also, I don't think we can just buy another MSN.

You see, you don't really have a choice, Luft. It's the way it is. No serious plan B can be in place without the right players. And no great payers would come to serve as a back-up plan. "You see, we want you bad, because if our star players get injured or something bad happens to them, you could help us in those rough times". You think a top winger will come at Barca with MSN around? Rumors say Reus already turned us down for that reason, and seems like Pedro might leave (also because of the MSN).

When we bought Neymar and Suarez in back-to-back summers, it was to build a galactico-type team, not to learn them to play the Barca way (which is impossible if you don't come from our academy), but to mold our game to their strenghts. Similar to the galactico Real team, what we need right now is not to make the mistake to think we don't really need a Makelele, because the Makeleles do the job the star attacking players don't know, don't want to do and, in all fairness, shouldn't be forced to do. It's a team composed of role-players (the so called specialists), players that will do their job and not much else.

We are MSN dependent. When I say it, I don't say it because I like it. I say it because it's true.

 

[Luftstalag14]

You see, you don't really have a choice, Luft. It's the way it is. No serious plan B can be in place without the right players. And no great payers would come to serve as a back-up plan. "You see, we want you bad, because if our star players get injured or something bad happens to them, you could help us in those rough times". You think a top winger will come at Barca with MSN around? Rumors say Reus already turned us down for that reason, and seems like Pedro might leave (also because of the MSN).

When we bought Neymar and Suarez in back-to-back summers, it was to build a galactico-type team, not to learn them to play the Barca way (which is impossible if you don't come from our academy), but to mold our game to their strenghts. Similar to the galactico Real team, what we need right now is not to make the mistake to think we don't really need a Makelele, because the Makeleles do the job the star attacking players don't know, don't want to do and, in all fairness, shouldn't be forced to do. It's a team composed of role-players (the so called specialists), players that will do their job and not much else.

We are MSN dependent. When I say it, I don't say it because I like it. I say it because it's true.

I agree with all of that. All I am saying is let's let MSN do what they do best, attack and not bog then down with having to track back to the midfield and create everything out of their own. Let's give them more wings, so to speak by having a creative midfield. I don't mind MSN scoring a 100 easy tap-in goals and win us trophies.

 

[serghei]

I agree with all of that. All I am saying is let's let MSN do what they do best, attack and not bog then down with having to track back to the midfield and create everything out of their own. Let's give them more wings, so to speak by having a creative midfield. I don't mind MSN scoring a 100 easy tap-in goals and win us trophies.

Actually, at first I'm mad at them because they don't track back, even Messi, but I realise that we always ask for more, as fans. But then I saw them against Bayern defending a 2-0, with us having 10 field players behind the ball (even Messi), so it can be done if the game needs it and if they are motivated enough to do it. And with Bayern attacking us to get the away goal, we really needed them to do some defensive work. And they did. They didn't do it when Juve was gaining momentum at 1-1 in the CL final, so there are moments and moments. That 10 minutes between Morata's goal and Suarez' goal were the only moments when we didn't know if we'll win or lose the final. Anyways, the idea IMO, is that we can't really ask them to track back or count on them to do it.

Now, the part where we don't agree is the creativity of the midfield part. I think our midfield was basically part of our defensive mecanism (and I don't mean defending by keeping the ball, but about defending when the opponent has it), more so than in the other years. If we look at our defensive record this last season, we might say Pique stepped it up and Alves got back to his best, but even so, our defense was this good because our midfielders were much more preocupied with the defensive aspect of our game. Right now, if we are to play Thiago Alcantara instead of Rakitic (just an example), that would result in a loss in our capacity to 1) get the ball back in midfield, 2) tackle an opponent or make a tactical foul, 3) cover for Dani Alves and others. These 3 things are much more important right now in our team than that extra bit of creativity that Thiago can provide and Rakitic can't.

That is the reason I like Turan and I think he's an awesome signing. In a Barca 2015/16 set-up, Arda Turan is basically a ball-winner with flair and skill for me, that could be more if needed (very important) -- even a playmaker, assist maker or scorer. Even if he played in different positions, and he might not be 100% CM, his qualities check all the marks for a Barcelona CM at THIS moment in time. Maybe I'm overrating him a bit, but if we're happy with Rakitic, I think we'll be even happier with Arda.

 

[Donauwelle]

And we are very happy with Thiago.

[youtube]8RyLZaCPMxc[/youtube]

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Couldnt find a video covering his invidual performance in that game, I did however find the match video.
Not gonna rewatch it now, but I singled out some match highlights of him. He was directly involved in 3 of the 4 goals Bayern has scored.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54SDSTwqRSk

1. Instrumentaizing Bayern first goal from 15:00 match time (15:09 video time)
2. Goal at 53:24 match-time (55:24 video time)
3. Assist at 68:15 match time (1:09:57 video time)

He did a couple more through passes, long balls and dribbles that lead to something, even the "invisible" 20 starting minutes he did iniated a couple of attacks by long balls.

Better HD video over at regmo on blogspot.com (English Bein feed).

Watched the first half so far, and agree, Thiago looks good, nice vision, through balls, and quick sharp distribution. Lahm with the star moment in the first half, absolutely stunning reverse pass to find Muller for the 2nd Bayern goal.

 

[DonAndres]

Actually, at first I'm mad at them because they don't track back, even Messi, but I realise that we always ask for more, as fans. But then I saw them against Bayern defending a 2-0, with us having 10 field players behind the ball (even Messi), so it can be done if the game needs it and if they are motivated enough to do it. And with Bayern attacking us to get the away goal, we really needed them to do some defensive work. And they did. They didn't do it when Juve was gaining momentum at 1-1 in the CL final, so there are moments and moments. That 10 minutes between Morata's goal and Suarez' goal were the only moments when we didn't know if we'll win or lose the final. Anyways, the idea IMO, is that we can't really ask them to track back or count on them to do it.

Now, the part where we don't agree is the creativity of the midfield part. I think our midfield was basically part of our defensive mecanism (and I don't mean defending by keeping the ball, but about defending when the opponent has it), more so than in the other years. If we look at our defensive record this last season, we might say Pique stepped it up and Alves got back to his best, but even so, our defense was this good because our midfielders were much more preocupied with the defensive aspect of our game. Right now, if we are to play Thiago Alcantara instead of Rakitic (just an example), that would result in a loss in our capacity to 1) get the ball back in midfield, 2) tackle an opponent or make a tactical foul, 3) cover for Dani Alves and others. These 3 things are much more important right now in our team than that extra bit of creativity that Thiago can provide and Rakitic can't.

That is the reason I like Turan and I think he's an awesome signing. In a Barca 2015/16 set-up, Arda Turan is basically a ball-winner with flair and skill for me, that could be more if needed (very important) -- even a playmaker, assist maker or scorer. Even if he played in different positions, and he might not be 100% CM, his qualities check all the marks for a Barcelona CM at THIS moment in time. Maybe I'm overrating him a bit, but if we're happy with Rakitic, I think we'll be even happier with Arda.

Ehhh, your narrative doesn't completely sit right with me for a number of reasons.

First off, our midfield wasn't primarily a 'defensive mechanism for winning the ball back' in Lucho's system. For the most part their responsibility was in transitioning the ball into the right areas and helping us control matches (not doing so was a vast part of our dysfunction in the 1st half of the season). Rakitic had to have perfect positioning and movement to create a tandem with Alves and help the right flank be a massive threat. Iniesta still had a role in playing passes between the lines and getting the ball forward in the right areas (though his playmaking role did decline). The midfield doesn't have to be racking up countless throughballs/assists for them to be a creative unit, which they were. If they weren't, Messi wouldn't be getting the enabling environment/system that he does at Barca and he'd have faced the exact same difficulties that he does with Argentina: a midfield that doesn't know how to control the play and transition the ball to him well. This whole 'midfield is just an extension of the defense' theory overlooks a lot of things but I presume it's the basis for your sentiment of why Kondogbia would've slotted in and been perfect. It's just false though. We don't and can't play with players who just make tackles and then hand the ball aimlessly to one of MSN. They have a very important creative duty even if they aren't directly responsible for the final outcomes of each attacking play.

Secondly, Iniesta didn't transform into some kind of new-Gattuso. He played deeper than before and had more defensive responsibility than before, but he wasn't an irreplaceable cog in our defensive system who was breaking up plays left and right. His defensive stats (tackling and interceptions per game) are only marginally higher than previous seasons. Thiago on the other hand does his fair share of defensive work when required. He too isn't a huge defensive workhorse but he does his duty to a level that is expected of creative CM's. If you envision him in Rakitic's position and not Iniesta's, then I agree that he doesn't stack up defensively. However there would be 0 downgrade (probably an upgrade) defensively speaking if Thiago were to play in that LCM role.

Lastly, I think you're overdoing it with the whole 'Turan is a ball-winner with some skill/flair'. If anything, he's exactly an Iniesta-profile player with more aggression off of the ball. Of Atleti's 4 man midfield, he was by far the weakest in defensive duties and his stamina could be questioned. I don't think that'll be an issue at Barca since he'll have a lot less running to do even if he has defensive responsibilities, plus his creativity will be highlighted a lot more here. His job isn't to just win the ball and then give it to MSN, it's a lot more complex than that and definitely an offensive-first role.