Transfers and Rumours - old thread

BerkeleyBernie

BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
JamDav1982 said:
Messi is central to the Barcelona style and is heavily involved in the build up and would not get that out wide.
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Not true as a CF. Messi never touches the ball when he plays CF, because he walks around with two centerbacks ready to pounce on any pass to him. It's only when he drops back into the midfield about 20 minutes into the game, leaving a hole up front, that he becomes part of the build up play. Those of us who recommend playing Messi as essentially another right side midfielder (which is what he already does) see that he is more effective behind a central forward who occupies the centerbacks, which gives Messi room to operate in his preferred area (attacking from mid-right towards front left)

The one thing that has worked this season in the attack is Messi but you want to change it. Makes no sense.
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That is not a logical conclusion to draw:

1) It assumes Messi would be less productive as part of a different system. No evidence of that- in fact, the opposite (as in the 2nd leg vs Milan, and 2nd half vs Sevilla).

2) It assumes that Messi's high production in this system is *dependent* on the system, but assumes that the lower production of the other players is *independent* of the system. It makes more sense to analyze holistically, that *both* are results of the system, that they are not independent of each other, and that the imbalance is a direct result of how the team is instructed to play (with Barça in particular, because the culture has always been about creating goals as a team). You can't blame the wing forwards for the system in which they play, which rarely counterattacks, and has no target to whom to send in crosses (the traditional means of production of wingers). In this Barça system, wing forwards behave as outside midfielders, and what is available to them when playing against 10 men behind the ball is spreading the tiki-taka wider.
 
BerkeleyBernie

BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
JamDav1982 said:
They need to get stretched by better wide players not Messi being taken out a position where he has risen to the greatest player of all time and broke records weekly.
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Again, a false assumption. Even if Messi were playing as a wide player in this system, he'd have trouble breaking through. When you have 10 men behind the ball and NO ONE!!!! NO ONE !!! NO ONE!!! inside the lines to pull the centerbacks, it really doesn't matter if a wide player can get past one defender here and there. They still have to cut the ball back because there is no space and no one to give it to. They can try to tiki taka from the sides, but there are 8-9 free defenders in the way because they have no one to mark. They simply slide over and shut them down.

It's clear that the team is most effective when there is a player to occupy the centerbacks and move them around. Messi, when CF, makes no off the ball movement and the center is a dead hole; only when he is involved in the start of 1-2 tiki-taka attacks once he has dropped back to midfield does he start moving (and THAT is when you need a CF ahead of Messi, creating a situation where Messi has to beat 2 men instead of 4).
 
Barca8

Barca8

New member
BerkeleyBernie said:
Not true as a CF. Messi never touches the ball when he plays CF, because he walks around with two centerbacks ready to pounce on any pass to him. It's only when he drops back into the midfield about 20 minutes into the game, leaving a hole up front, that he becomes part of the build up play. Those of us who recommend playing Messi as essentially another right side midfielder (which is what he already does) see that he is more effective behind a central forward who occupies the centerbacks, which gives Messi room to operate in his preferred area (attacking from mid-right towards front left)

That is not a logical conclusion to draw:

1) It assumes Messi would be less productive as part of a different system. No evidence of that- in fact, the opposite (as in the 2nd leg vs Milan, and 2nd half vs Sevilla).

2) It assumes that Messi's high production in this system is *dependent* on the system, but assumes that the lower production of the other players is *independent* of the system. It makes more sense to analyze holistically, that *both* are results of the system, that they are not independent of each other, and that the imbalance is a direct result of how the team is instructed to play (with Barça in particular, because the culture has always been about creating goals as a team). You can't blame the wing forwards for the system in which they play, which rarely counterattacks, and has no target to whom to send in crosses (the traditional means of production of wingers). In this Barça system, wing forwards behave as outside midfielders, and what is available to them when playing against 10 men behind the ball is spreading the tiki-taka wider.
Click to expand...

BerkeleyBernie said:
Again, a false assumption. Even if Messi were playing as a wide player in this system, he'd have trouble breaking through. When you have 10 men behind the ball and NO ONE!!!! NO ONE !!! NO ONE!!! inside the lines to pull the centerbacks, it really doesn't matter if a wide player can get past one defender here and there. They still have to cut the ball back because there is no space and no one to give it to. They can try to tiki taka from the sides, but there are 8-9 free defenders in the way because they have no one to mark. They simply slide over and shut them down.

It's clear that the team is most effective when there is a player to occupy the centerbacks and move them around. Messi, when CF, makes no off the ball movement and the center is a dead hole; only when he is involved in the start of 1-2 tiki-taka attacks once he has dropped back to midfield does he start moving (and THAT is when you need a CF ahead of Messi, creating a situation where Messi has to beat 2 men instead of 4).
Click to expand...

:worthy:
Excellent posts :beer2:

Now if only someone could pass this information on to management...
 
i_bleed_blaugrana

i_bleed_blaugrana

Senior Member
It's quite simple, regardless of whether or not Messi plays as a false 9, a 2nd striker or on the RW, he will continue to struggle unless there is movement inside the box. Offensively, our problem this year came from how static our wing play was. There was virtually no movement inside that drew the attention of the defenders. With Pedro and Sanchez standing on the wings, not making runs inside or behind, all you have to do is stop Messi and your good.

If we can regain our constant movement from the wings, which I'm hoping Neymar will provide, our offense should flow a lot smoother. Still think Messi should stay as a false 9, when a player puts up his kind of numbers, you don't dare switch where he plays
 
I

instinct

Guest
Barcelona are interested in Chelsea forward Fernando Torres (29). Mourinho doesn't want him and he would be available for 20M. [sport]
 
A

Adyx

New member
Dortmund's Robert Lewandowski (24), valued at 30M, is Barcelona's main forward option. A loan of Deulofeu could be included. [intereconomia]
 
F

forcabarca

Guest
Adyx said:
Dortmund's Robert Lewandowski (24), valued at 30M, is Barcelona's main forward option. A loan of Deulofeu could be included. [intereconomia]
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Would love to see him in Barça colors.. Don't see this deal happening unless they accept part yearly payments. :D

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
 
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