1 - Marc-Andre ter Ansplant

[raedkuwait]

He is the first that needs to go, u just can not build a team around a closing eyes shit keeper like him.

 

[Porque]

Good post
When can we look forward to part 3 of your essay?

Tomorrow most likely .

 

[zanela]

Absolutely. Any keeper worth his salt doesn't leave it to the defenders there. You can use your fucking hands, the ball is like 4m away from you. The box wasn't even very crowded.

The volley was a golazo, although you can bet on someone like Oblak getting a hand on that. But hey, even a good keeper can get beaten by that shot. I understand, caught it full-on, in the corner, bummer. But 1 and 3 should be stopped by good keepers. For 1 you come out and box it away. And for 3 it almost went through him.

Seriously, I think we underused Neto.

Barca, with Neto in goal, only secured 8 points out of possible 18 points early season. Before him, when Cillessen played in LL, he didn't impress either. So I am not sure a change in GK is somehow going to transform Barca in to serial champions (as much as some posters here like to push this agenda).

Our last CL winning side had Mascherano and Alves shoring up the backline. Losing them has meant we have lost leadership, quality and big game temperament, and we have not adequately replaced either. Pique was never a leader, and the less said the better about Barca's other defenders. MAtS has always let in soft goals, we have always known that. But he's also been an asset for this club for stretches of his tenure. Any denial reeks personal bias and nothing more. Could we have gained more with a different keeper in the same period. May be. May be not. There's no way of knowing it with certainty. Players, with all their abilities negotiate their footballing context throughout their career. Athletes adapt differently to different structural realities. Again all the big name keepers might be an instant upgrade on MAtS, but they may also falter when played consistently behind an incompetent defense which they have not had to experience thus far.

Again, some of the criticism directed at him is warranted and fair. He's been poor this past month but to bash him incessantly for all our failures is quite honestly juvenile. I also found it ironic how some posters belittled him for turning up only against the lower table clubs, but when he didn't (see Granada), it canceled us out of the title race. Moral of the story: It's not necessarily the big games, but those against the mid-lower clubs that wins you championships.

 

[Xaviniesta]

Good post
When can we look forward to part 3 of your essay?

this you?

 

[khaled_a_d]

Recently I had this thing, looking for 1st page in some of our players/coaches thread. And

he is already fantastic and doesn't make many mistakes. His personality is impressive, he is focus on the game and he absolutly know what he do.

I mean damn, MATS had bright future indeed and he was correct.
But he basically described some things that he literally became the opposite.
Amazing how times change
PS: nothing against kaddel11 btw.

 

[malvolio]

Barca, with Neto in goal, only secured 8 points out of possible 18 points early season. Before him, when Cillessen played in LL, he didn't impress either. So I am not sure a change in GK is somehow going to transform Barca in to serial champions (as much as some posters here like to push this agenda).

Our last CL winning side had Mascherano and Alves shoring up the backline. Losing them has meant we have lost leadership, quality and big game temperament, and we have not adequately replaced either. Pique was never a leader, and the less said the better about Barca's other defenders. MAtS has always let in soft goals, we have always known that. But he's also been an asset for this club for stretches of his tenure. Any denial reeks personal bias and nothing more. Could we have gained more with a different keeper in the same period. May be. May be not. There's no way of knowing it with certainty. Players, with all their abilities negotiate their footballing context throughout their career. Athletes adapt differently to different structural realities. Again all the big name keepers might be an instant upgrade on MAtS, but they may also falter when played consistently behind an incompetent defense which they have not had to experience thus far.

Again, some of the criticism directed at him is warranted and fair. He's been poor this past month but to bash him incessantly for all our failures is quite honestly juvenile. I also found it ironic how some posters belittled him for turning up only against the lower table clubs, but when he didn't (see Granada), it canceled us out of the title race. Moral of the story: It's not necessarily the big games, but those against the mid-lower clubs that wins you championships.

spot on!

 

[Bobo32]

Recently I had this thing, looking for 1st page in some of our players/coaches thread. And

I mean damn, MATS had bright future indeed and he was correct.
But he basically described some things that he literally became the opposite.
Amazing how times change
PS: nothing against kaddel11 btw.

Yeah I skimmed through the early pages of some threads and saw some very remarkable things, but I am too nice of a person to report what I saw...

zanela bring up some decent points, but if Stegen is said to have been poor this month, I am even more sure that he is not in reality very poor. I saw one big mistake and perhaps a few goals which he could've saved, but also a very nice game vs Atletico for instance. Please bring forward video examples of what he should've done differently.

 

[fergus90]

The current replacements for him aren't much better, but a better gk in general will have you securing more points.

e.g. when Chelsea went from Cudicini to Cech
Man United from Carroll to Van Der Sar
Liverpool Karius to Allisson
Man City Joe Hart to Ederson

I just think there are quite a few better shot-stoppers than him in world football and he quite often stays routed to one spot.

 

[Bobo32]

The current replacements for him aren't much better, but a better gk in general will have you securing more points.

e.g. when Chelsea went from Cudicini to Cech
Man United from Carroll to Van Der Sar
Liverpool Karius to Allisson
Man City Joe Hart to Ederson

I just think there are quite a few better shot-stoppers than him in world football and he quite often stays routed to one spot.

Sure
I have a few arguments to make regarding your examples though:

• ter Stegen is better now than Cudicini, Carroll, Karius and Hart were (I thought Cudicini was pretty good and underrated though)
• Ederson would probably be good for Barcelona, maybe Alisson as well, but is there a VDS or Cech available at the moment? How many, and what would make them want to choose Barcelona?
• You list four english teams, needing a different style of keeper than Barcelona (more focus on crosses f.e)
• More to that point, two of them were almost 20 years ago.

But a better keeper is a good thing.
If there was an obvious upgrade available, I'd understand. Or if Marc threw in balls every other game, but I don't think he does.
Donnarumma would maybe improve Chelsea in 2004 just as Cech did, but I think Barcelona would be way worse with him rather than Mats in goal right now.

This was a decent article:
https://barcauniversal.com/the-quality-of-marc-andre-ter-stegen-keeping-things-in-perspective/

 

[fergus90]

Sure
I have a few arguments to make regarding your examples though:

• ter Stegen is better now than Cudicini, Carroll, Karius and Hart were (I thought Cudicini was pretty good and underrated though)
• Ederson would probably be good for Barcelona, maybe Alisson as well, but is there a VDS or Cech available at the moment? How many, and what would make them want to choose Barcelona?
• You list four english teams, needing a different style of keeper than Barcelona (more focus on crosses f.e)
• More to that point, two of them were almost 20 years ago.

But a better keeper is a good thing.
If there was an obvious upgrade available, I'd understand. Or if Marc threw in balls every other game, but I don't think he does.
Donnarumma would maybe improve Chelsea in 2004 just as Cech did, but I think Barcelona would be way worse with him rather than Mats in goal right now.

This was a decent article:
https://barcauniversal.com/the-quality-of-marc-andre-ter-stegen-keeping-things-in-perspective/

They were just four examples I plucked out my head to be honest of the difference having a better goalkeeper can make without really thinking too deeply about it. PSG for example got better when Navas went there too and that's much closer than 20 years ago.

My first team (Aston Villa) has a better keeper than Barcelona in my honest opinion and the difference he made to us was massive.

To be honest, many teams play out from the back these days, it's actually quite difficult to find any team where the goalkeeper isn't at least competent with his feet to some level. It isn't like 15 years ago where they'd just launch it back upfield.

 

[Bobo32]

They were just four examples I plucked out my head to be honest of the difference having a better goalkeeper can make without really thinking too deeply about it. PSG for example got better when Navas went there too and that's much closer than 20 years ago.

My first team (Aston Villa) has a better keeper than Barcelona in my honest opinion and the difference he made to us was massive.

To be honest, many teams play out from the back these days, it's actually quite difficult to find any team where the goalkeeper isn't at least competent with his feet to some level. It isn't like 15 years ago where they'd just launch it back upfield.

Yeah I'm not picking on your main argument really, I'd agree with the point that a better keeper will improve any team.

I don't see ter Stegen being really bad though, and I don't see any obvious candidates that would improve Barcelona greatly (even disregarding stuff like money and settling that's always there with transfers, and more so with keepers).
I do not follow top football so closely though, so there might very well be candidates, maybe the one in Aston Villa... When people mention Donnarumma, though, I think I am able to say that they are in the wrong.

 

[Rory]

Part of the pushback from fans towards Ter Stegen is the hype some fans decided to build around him. People were saying he should replace Neuer and that he was the best goalkeeper in the world. To be honest he performed as a top 3-5 goalkeeper in 2019 up until Anfield. But that's just it isn't it. He's essentially failed at the biggest hurdles. Now his average level isn't that same top 3-5 in the world AND he performs poorly in big games.

It's not a case of the grass is always greener, it's about binning a player that we have seen clearly cannot handle the big occasion. He's also reached a point now where he can't even handle mildly stressful circumstances.

His hype is still big in world football. We can probably fetch 50m for him. We could sell him, invest that money in improving the defence and really see how much worse our gk options are long term.

 

[Bobo32]

Part of the pushback from fans towards Ter Stegen is the hype some fans decided to build around him. People were saying he should replace Neuer and that he was the best goalkeeper in the world. To be honest he performed as a top 3-5 goalkeeper in 2019 up until Anfield. But that's just it isn't it. He's essentially failed at the biggest hurdles. Now his average level isn't that same top 3-5 in the world AND he performs poorly in big games.

It's not a case of the grass is always greener, it's about binning a player that we have seen clearly cannot handle the big occasion. He's also reached a point now where he can't even handle mildly stressful circumstances.

His hype is still big in world football. We can probably fetch 50m for him. We could sell him, invest that money in improving the defence and really see how much worse our gk options are long term.

So up until 2 years ago he was top 3-5. That's a level above what FC Barcelona need in goal.

I didn't see him becoming worse since then myself. The critique does sound to me to mostly be a bit of the grass looking greener, the need of a scapegoat, and maybe just being tired of him.
I think he performed greatly in a big game just this weekend, and I don't think he was at fault vs PSG for example. You can't find any keeper that wouldn't sometimes make a bigger "mistake" than he did on mBappes first goal f.e, him being blamed for that goal says a lot.

 

[Rory]

So up until 2 years ago he was top 3-5. That's a level above what FC Barcelona need in goal.

I didn't see him becoming worse since then myself. The critique does sound to me to mostly be a bit of the grass looking greener, the need of a scapegoat, and maybe just being tired of him.
I think he performed greatly in a big game just this weekend, and I don't think he was at fault vs PSG for example. You can't find any keeper that wouldn't sometimes make a bigger "mistake" than he did on mBappes first goal f.e, him being blamed for that goal says a lot.

I'm saying he performed as one for that year, up until a certain point. Plenty of players have had one or two excellent seasons but not amounted to much.

Seems like you're exaggerating his weekend performance vs atletico. He made saves expected of a top flight keeper.

What is it you think Barcelona need in goal? For example I think a keeper for us needs to be able to stop goals being conceded. They also need to be good with their feet at short passing and control. Ter Stegen is good with the ball at his feet. Lot's of keepers are too. It's become a huge part of goalkeeping and many keepers are trained in this art now.

 

[Bobo32]

I'm saying he performed as one for that year, up until a certain point. Plenty of players have had one or two excellent seasons but not amounted to much.

Seems like you're exaggerating his weekend performance vs atletico. He made saves expected of a top flight keeper.

What is it you think Barcelona need in goal? For example I think a keeper for us needs to be able to stop goals being conceded. They also need to be good with their feet at short passing and control. Ter Stegen is good with the ball at his feet. Lot's of keepers are too. It's become a huge part of goalkeeping and many keepers are trained in this art now.

Okay, then I misunderstood.

Against Atletico he did make one great save and a couple that was at least notable. It was a recent good game against top opposition in a stressful game. I guess Barcelona have a couple of those games per year, I never noticed him failing tbh. He saved penalties in the cup too this year IIRC...

I think ter Stegen got a bit worse in his decisions with the ball this last year.
Ederson for example adds a lot with his feet in a different way, and keepers in general are better with their feet now than 30 years ago, it's correct.
I haven't seen many being able to do this for example though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NGR-c-hazE