10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Paganinisrvnge]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/.../top-100-footballers-in-the-world-interactive

guardian voted top 100 footballers ion 2012.... dont know if someone posted this before ?

Yeah, a few pages ago. 100% of the people voting on that list voted Messi at number one.

 

[GiantKiller]

This confirms the trend of Messi becoming more and more a striker, than a false 9 by definition. If you look at the way we played back during our treble winning season and where we currently are in terms of our forward three, you see a gradual trend of Messi scoring the heck out of each and every opposition.

If we'd have our both wingers firing all cylinders now, we'd be probably scoring from 2 to 4 additional goals a game easy. I think this is the position Messi will play in for another 5-6 years, unless his pace will leave him behind, meaning he'll be used in a more traditional enganche role.

I've seen Messi drop deep enough to create a 5-man midfield of sorts in some matches and also him being the furthest forward player on the pitch using his presence to let the likes of Iniesta and Fabregas do their thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Iniesta surpassed the stat p) of highest assists by him in a season? If not, then he must be very close and there's still a long way to go for the season to end. So, my point is that if anything, Tito is trying to introduce as much variation as possible to the team with Messis' role ( adding different 'key' off-the-ball movements to his game ) and the manner in which the team uses the ball being a couple of examples and if that's what you're saying then I agree with you.

 

[Garrus]

The worst part is that it's the same stats over and over again. Barcastuff does the same. I swear they've tweeted "top scorer in top 5 European leagues" like 10 times within a week.

So, to go away from the stats spamming a bit. Anyone else noticed that Tito uses Messi more as an out-and-out striker? He's still creating but nowhere near as much as under Pep when he used to be the central figure in every attacking move with his trademark "throughball between centreback and fullback" assists. Even the stats lol back it up. Last season Messi averaged 2.5 key passes per game. This season only 1.4. Last season he averaged 1.5 throughballs per game. This season only 0.3. Which also reflects on his assist stats. 5 assists vs. Cesc's 9 and Iniesta's 10. Under Pep he had by far the most assists. IMO this is a good evolution. Tito lets the attacking midfielders do their jobs (assisting goals) instead of letting Messi collect the ball from Busquets and make him create everything. Iniesta is already only 1 goal short of his top assist season if I'm not mistaken (someone here might have the stats ). Less Messi-dependencia.

Discuss.

I don't know if i remember correctly, But didn't you post these key passes and through balls stats a months ago and weren't happy about it, Again i'm not sure if it was you.
This fits with his new type of movements or can i say 'static' or 'lack of movement' we've seen from him this season, Makes you wonder what the hell pep was trying to do, drain him to death?, I think we'll start to see the real pay off of this later in the season, Or at least i hope so.
I think 4 of iniesta's assists came when he was on the left wing, Not as an AMD.

 

[alex88bg]

Well i just know one thing he will be fresh in the later stages of the CL....U saw him what he did vs Valladolid when he didnt save himself for the next match...He was a menace,he just plays as much as he is told and he feels like.He was always little bit down on form by the end of the season bcs of the tiredness now i think he will be ruthlessly ready.Playing 60-70 % and still being the best player in the world,frightening.

 

[DMZ05]

I've seen Messi drop deep enough to create a 5-man midfield of sorts in some matches and also him being the furthest forward player on the pitch using his presence to let the likes of Iniesta and Fabregas do their thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Iniesta surpassed the stat p) of highest assists by him in a season? If not, then he must be very close and there's still a long way to go for the season to end. So, my point is that if anything, Tito is trying to introduce as much variation as possible to the team with Messis' role ( adding different 'key' off-the-ball movements to his game ) and the manner in which the team uses the ball being a couple of examples and if that's what you're saying then I agree with you.

He can play the Xavi role easily. He will get better with age even if he scores less goals.

 

[footyfan]

Anyone else noticed that Tito uses Messi more as an out-and-out striker? He's still creating but nowhere near as much as under Pep when he used to be the central figure in every attacking move with his trademark "throughball between centreback and fullback" assists. Even the stats lol back it up. Last season Messi averaged 2.5 key passes per game. This season only 1.4. Last season he averaged 1.5 throughballs per game. This season only 0.3. Which also reflects on his assist stats. 5 assists vs. Cesc's 9 and Iniesta's 10. Under Pep he had by far the most assists. IMO this is a good evolution. Tito lets the attacking midfielders do their jobs (assisting goals) instead of letting Messi collect the ball from Busquets and make him create everything. Iniesta is already only 1 goal short of his top assist season if I'm not mistaken (someone here might have the stats )

Discuss.

I remember posting these stats on this thread. An additional thing to note is that the through ball stats for other players have decreased too. Barca averaged 13 through passes per game last season as compared to 7 this year. The conclusion I made was that there's far less space this season compared to last, which matches the general feeling I get after watching Barca games this year. Your point about Messi still stands though. He doesn't move around enough like before to take advantage of good positions.

 

[Leo10]

Sky Sports on Messi

 

[Plip]

I've seen Messi drop deep enough to create a 5-man midfield of sorts in some matches and also him being the furthest forward player on the pitch using his presence to let the likes of Iniesta and Fabregas do their thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Iniesta surpassed the stat p) of highest assists by him in a season? If not, then he must be very close and there's still a long way to go for the season to end. So, my point is that if anything, Tito is trying to introduce as much variation as possible to the team with Messis' role ( adding different 'key' off-the-ball movements to his game ) and the manner in which the team uses the ball being a couple of examples and if that's what you're saying then I agree with you.

I think Tito experiments with him due to having one eye on the future. Messi won't be able to run as much as he has now in, say, 5 years' time, thus it's easier use his other attributes to the teams advantage like playing more deep or taking over the enganche role Iniesta and Fabregas hold. We were entertaining an idea with a friend of mine of Messi taking over Iniesta's spot just for experiment a few times and see how he does there. It would probably be like having Iniesta on steroids haha.

What comes to Iniesta's assists, I think he's on par with his personal record from last season. He will definitely add plenty more to that tally if he'll remain healthy until the very last game (hardly has, though, but there's hope).

Back to Messi's role, I would for some reason like our midfield and forward line looking like either this:

Busquets

Xavi - Messi

Alexis - Villa - Tello​

or this:

Busquets

Messi - Iniesta

Pedro - Villa - Tello​

In the first example given, Messi would play in a traditional enganche role with having the freedom to roam when needed, while feeding our forward three constantly with passes and creating goal-scoring opportunities (having a go at it as well, if he's in the right position).

In the second example, he be more of a deep-lying playmaker and perform the Xavi role. Despite of being a bit of a tunnel-visioned player, he still can work on that aspect of the game with the amount of time he has and I believe he could execute this role quite well if given the chance.

But this is just a thought discussed.

 

[Ursegor]

We'll never see the second formation I'm afraid. SO many reasons against that idea. To begin with, Messi averages 8 km per game. Xavi averages 12, making himself available to receive a pass and dictate play every single minute of the game, whereas Messi trots around for long periods of a game to conserve energy for his dribbles. If Messi had to dictate play in a deeper midfield position he would need to cover like 50 % more ground to make himself constantly available. He'll tire out quicker, his passing will become sloppier etc. On top of that, one of the underrated qualities of Xavi: his defensive work. Watch the Euro final again. He closed down Pirlo as if he were Makelele. His positional play is exceptional. Watch him gesticulate towards his teammates how to position themselves defensively during some games. Messi is just not going to put in that defensive shift which he would need to do if he played in central midfield. Fabregas is an out-and-out midfielder and even the combination of Fabregas-Iniesta without Xavi is not exactly working. Osasuna away this season comes to mind when we had 0 control of the game with Iniesta and Cesc in midfield. Until Xavi entered the pitch. Attacking midfield position (Iniesta's role) is the maximum Messi might withdraw into. But then again there is no point in playing Tello or Alexis ahead of Iniesta while moving Messi away from goal. And Villa is going to partner Torres next season at Chelsea anyway.

 

[Plip]

We'll never see the second formation I'm afraid. SO many reasons against that idea. To begin with, Messi averages 8 km per game. Xavi averages 12, making himself available to receive a pass and dictate play every single minute of the game, whereas Messi trots around for long periods of a game to conserve energy for his dribbles. If Messi had to dictate play in a deeper midfield position he would need to cover like 50 % more ground to make himself constantly available. He'll tire out quicker, his passing will become sloppier etc. On top of that, one of the underrated qualities of Xavi: his defensive work. Watch the Euro final again. He closed down Pirlo as if he were Makelele. His positional play is exceptional. Watch him gesticulate towards his teammates how to position themselves defensively during some games. Messi is just not going to put in that defensive shift which he would need to do if he played in central midfield. Fabregas is an out-and-out midfielder and even the combination of Fabregas-Iniesta without Xavi is not exactly working. Osasuna away this season comes to mind when we had 0 control of the game with Iniesta and Cesc in midfield. Until Xavi entered the pitch. Attacking midfield position (Iniesta's role) is the maximum Messi might withdraw into. But then again there is no point in playing Tello or Alexis ahead of Iniesta while moving Messi away from goal. And Villa is going to partner Torres next season at Chelsea anyway.

Agreed.

That second line-up is more of a funny thought, more than anything. Messi doesn't necessarily have the stamina nor endurance to play the deep-lying part, and his vision might let him down there as well (not saying he lacks it, but it is not on par with Iniesta's or Xavi's). It will be interesting to see how the team dynamics will change when Xavi will hang his boots, and whether we'll have a player emulating what he does or not.

The idea of moving Messi into a trequartista position would be an interesting one, as he would not necessarily be moved that far away from the goal as might be thought. That is, if you look at how Iniesta plays, he still manages to move into quite a lot of scoring positions, but instead either lays a killer pass or fluffs his shot. As much as I adored Iniesta, Messi would be able to perform his role on a next level while still managing to score.

It would be interesting to explore this option a few times, just for the sake of trying something different. It would also be interesting to see how our front three would perform without Messi in the (false) hole. Giving Villa a more central role could benefit both whoever occupies our right wing and speed demon's like Tello / Alexis.

 

[footyfan]

We already did play with a 4-2-4 against Osasuna. Villa, Alexis, Pedro in front of Messi in trequartista position. Xavi and Busquets behind in a sort of double pivot. Worked out amazing as we came from behind to win 2-1 with....Messi scoring twice.

 

[Ursegor]

This is probably one of the better formations which provides the right balance if you really want Messi to play a bit deeper in a Trequartista-like role.

Alexis
Iniesta Messi Pedro
Busquets Xavi​

But then again we're playing like this anyway most of the time. Iniesta drifting wide. Alexis drifting centrally. Messi dropping deep. It's the usual 4-3-3 which becomes 4-2-3-1 or 3-5-2 in practice. With this Barcelona team I don't know if it actually makes so much sense to talk about formations anymore considering how every player plays every position anyway. Alba and Alves act like wingers. Busquets drops into CB. Messi drops into midfield. Xavi pushes up into Messi's false 9 position. Alexis becomes a centreforward. Pedro tracks back like a rightback. The centrebacks split up to cover for the fullbacks ... It's a fluid formations where everyone plays every position anyway.

As for Xavi's successor. He's irreplaceable but I have high hopes for Thiago. I don't know why many people want him to play further upfront as an attacking midfielder (ok, it's a lie, I know why, because he has that Brazilian flair going forward). For me his tactical and defensive awareness and ball retention skills indicate that he's much more suited for a central midfield role to dictate play.

And if everything fails Xavi will do a Scholes and just come out of retirement with 40.

 

[footyfan]

While with the 4-3-3 our play is fairly fluid with players performing different roles and interchanging, when we switch formations, for example like 3-4-3, 4-2-4, it becomes very obvious as players get distinct roles.

 

[Plip]

We already did play with a 4-2-4 against Osasuna. Villa, Alexis, Pedro in front of Messi in trequartista position. Xavi and Busquets behind in a sort of double pivot. Worked out amazing as we came from behind to win 2-1 with....Messi scoring twice.

Thanks for bringing this up. I had completely forgotten about this game.

But what I was actually hoping for would be a 4-2-1-3, with Messi playing behind the front three. On another note, I highly dislike us playing both Alexis and Pedro at the same time because their styles seem to constantly negate each other's effectiveness. I'd rather we try Tello there, as he is a bit of a different animal there than either of the two.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

As for Xavi's successor. He's irreplaceable but I have high hopes for Thiago. I don't know why many people want him to play further upfront as an attacking midfielder (ok, it's a lie, I know why, because he has that Brazilian flair going forward). For me his tactical and defensive awareness and ball retention skills indicate that he's much more suited for a central midfield role to dictate play.

Yup. It's clear Thiago is studying Xavi and Busquets. Love his attacking skills, of course, but right now, he's the one player modeling his play on Xavi. He's a bit quicker to release the ball, which has both positive and negative aspects. But great for his age, going to only improve with experience.