10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Sumlit]

Lost in all this Cristiano and Messi debate, which is terribly tinted with bias, inaccuracies and hyperbole on both sides, is Manuel Neuer who could very well be the most deserving of the 3. Neuer was clearly the best goal keeper in the world last season by some measure and not only did he win 4 titles with Bayern, but he is also a World Champion with Germany.

So:

- Best in your position
- Outstanding season
- 4 Club titles
- World Cup winner

If the scorer and volume stat hegemony is to be broken at all in this award, Neuer is an excellent and deserving candidate to do so.

 

[JamDav1982]

Putting way too much stock into volume stats. Volume stats that say Cristiano had the bulk of his scoring in the UCL vs the mighty Galatasaray, Copenhagen and Shalke. (10 goals) After the quarterfinals, Cristiano had 4 goals, all being the last goals of games already decided. Last goals vs Dortmund in a 3-0 victory. Last 2 goals vs Bayern in a 5-0 aggregate victory, one coming in stoppage time. Last goal vs Atletico in the final, in aggregate time of double extra time, from a penalty, in a 4-1 victory. Don't think he had any assists in these games either.

Cristiano also had 4 games in La Liga vs Barca and Atletico and only scored twice, and 1 was a penalty from a foul outside the box. You're big game narrative is a bit lacking in perspective.

Ronaldo missed one game for Real from the QF onwards and they were nearly knocked out.

His four goals from that stage on is better than any other player is it not? Certainly better than Mess did.

Easy to try and dismiss his two goals against Bayern as meaningless but this never gets thrown at Messi does it? Bayern couldnt handle him in that 4-0 game. He won the two set pieces they scored the first two goals from and ran their defence ragged.

As for Atletico he scored 4 goals against them and got two assists - three if you count the penalty win. Much more than Messi did against Atletico.

It is clear he did more in the bigger games than Messi did. He had a goal or assist in all but one of the games he played in against Barca/Atletico.

 

[Sumlit]

Ronaldo missed one game for Real from the QF onwards and they were nearly knocked out.

His four goals from that stage on is better than any other player is it not? Certainly better than Mess did.

Easy to try and dismiss his two goals against Bayern as meaningless but this never gets thrown at Messi does it? Bayern couldnt handle him in that 4-0 game. He won the two set pieces they scored the first two goals from and ran their defence ragged.

As for Atletico he scored 4 goals against them and got two assists - three if you count the penalty win. Much more than Messi did against Atletico.

It is clear he did more in the bigger games than Messi did. He had a goal or assist in all but one of the games he played in against Barca/Atletico.

Firstly I'm not dismissing anything, I said you're putting too much stock in volume stats and showed you why. All four goals were the lasts of decided games, in stoppage time and/or in decided ties. Hardly screams make or break goals. Let's not elevate stats for the sake of the stat.

In La Liga,
ATM 2-2 RMA, 1 goal, no assists//
RMA 0-1 ATM, no goals, no assists//
BAR 2-1 RMA, no goals, 1 assist(stoppage time)//
RMA 3-4 BAR, 1 goal(pen), no assists//

If you want to count RMA vs ATM in the Copa del Rey, then also mention that Atletico all but threw that tie away with the effort they brought.

Again, volume stats without context and perspective. 1 last second assists in an already lost game. 1 penalty goal that was actually outside the box. That's what separates him from 1 goal in 4 "big" games.

 

[JamDav1982]

Firstly I'm not dismissing anything, I said you're putting too much stock in volume stats and showed you why. All four goals were the lasts of decided games, in stoppage time and/or in decided ties. Hardly screams make or break goals. Let's not elevate stats for the sake of the stat.

In La Liga,
ATM 2-2 RMA, 1 goal, no assists//
RMA 0-1 ATM, no goals, no assists//
BAR 2-1 RMA, no goals, 1 assist(stoppage time)//
RMA 3-4 BAR, 1 goal(pen), no assists//

If you want to count RMA vs ATM in the Copa del Rey, then also mention that Atletico all but threw that tie away with the effort they brought.

Again, volume stats without context and perspective. 1 last second assists in an already lost game. 1 penalty goal that was actually outside the box. That's what separates him from 1 goal in 4 "big" games.

The fact remains that he had a much bigger impact on games than Messi in terms of the latter stages of the CL and in the biggest domestic games.

Messi had a goal or an assist in one game of nine vs Real and Atletico and no goals or assist past the QF stage of the CL.

In those nine games Messi was poor in eight of them and scored once from open play with no assists.

If you are claiming Ronaldo didnt have more of an impact in the bigger games than Messi did then that is just beyond biased.

 

[dakt]

Only on Barca forums is it so clear cut. Most fans have those two way above everyone else, albeit with Messi ahead, but certainly not by as much as you obviously think.

That's not a slight on Messi though. I remeber when United played Barca in 2011 CL final, I was absolutely petrified of Messi. He's probably the best player ever at his peak. I just so happen to think Ronaldo is also one of the best ever.

Ronaldo one of the best ever? Why? Just tell me what is so fascinating about him? OK, goals...what else?
It's amazing when people discuss whether Leo belongs to the top of the chart, amazing standards have to be fulfilled....HE MUST win WC by himself and every possible trophy, break all fucking records, etc.!
But when Ronaldo is in question, fuck WC, one goal record season and gifted ballon dor is enough.


And again, why do people only talk about fukin goal count. It's the way Messi scores that is beyond of reach for Ronaldo. It's the way Messi creates chances...far beyond any other player.

 

[NotInHere]

I remember Di Maria being the best player in the big games

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

People forgetting to factor in the decline of Xavi and Iniesta plus the coaching disaster since pep left.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I don't think Messi has had a bad year. He's been good...even very good still. However, that doesn't cut it these days if you want to win the Ballon d'Or.

So what makes someone cut it to win the BD? Scoring crazy like Ronaldo does?

 

[Morten]

So what makes someone cut it to win the BD? Scoring crazy like Ronaldo does?

Kind off, the ballon dor has been mainly about goals for some time. In Messis case its no different, when he scored those ridiculous 90 goals his team only won the cup, Messi went missing in quite a few big games, but he scored like crazy vs many midtier teams and that what matters. No hating, just stating the ballon dor is mainly about goals. Personally, i think Messi was better before he started that ridiculous goal spree, it may sound crazy, but thats how i felt. He was more machine-like, and less the Messi dominating the entire field.

 

[juguar]

Kind off, the ballon dor has been mainly about goals for some time. In Messis case its no different, when he scored those ridiculous 90 goals his team only won the cup, Messi went missing in quite a few big games, but he scored like crazy vs many midtier teams and that what matters. No hating, just stating the ballon dor is mainly about goals. Personally, i think Messi was better before he started that ridiculous goal spree, it may sound crazy, but thats how i felt. He was more machine-like, and less the Messi dominating the entire field.

Not sure Messi only won because of the goals.. He won because he just exploded on the scene. He may have scored a lot of goals, but that's not only why he's so great. Read Messi is Impossible to see how incredible he really is.

If it was just about goals then we would never be talking about Maradona or Zidane in the list of greatest ever.

 

[Morten]

Not sure Messi only won because of the goals.. He won because he just exploded on the scene. He may have scored a lot of goals, but that's not only why he's so great. Read Messi is Impossible to see how incredible he really is.

If it was just about goals then we would never be talking about Maradona or Zidane in the list of greatest ever.

I didnt mean he only won because of the goals, just that ballon dor focus alot on it these days. Messi and Roaldo are the two best players in the world, by some distance.

 

[juguar]

I didnt mean he only won because of the goals, just that ballon dor focus alot on it these days. Messi and Roaldo are the two best players in the world, by some distance.

I see your point.. a lot of the focus is on that. And I don't think it should be.. Look at Suarez and what he did with Liverpool (a lesser team) and what 8 fewer games. The talents of the central mids are harder to quantify, so they don't get as much recognition.. Sometimes I watch Juve games just to see what Pirlo is doing on the field.. what must he be thinking right now as the ball gets passed in front of him .. why did he make that sudden turn to the left.. etc.

 

[doublehh03]

Messi isn't going to win it this year so let's move on.

He already has a head start for next year's award. Broke 2 records within a week. Now just needs to continue form and help team wins and he'll bag it easily.

 

[doublehh03]

Only on Barca forums is it so clear cut. Most fans have those two way above everyone else, albeit with Messi ahead, but certainly not by as much as you obviously think.

That's not a slight on Messi though. I remeber when United played Barca in 2011 CL final, I was absolutely petrified of Messi. He's probably the best player ever at his peak. I just so happen to think Ronaldo is also one of the best ever.

Ronaldo is great, and considering team success, you can argue he has been better than Messi this year. But see how I mention team success. Because statistically, they were very close.

But Messi's peak is miles from what Ronaldo's peak is.

Let's consider this year which many consider to be Messi's "down" year.
2014 calendar year stats for Messi through today: 53 goals (club/country), 21 assists

for Ronaldo: 55 goals (club/country), 19 assists.

If you want to add them and look at goals accounted for, they're pretty much dead even. DEAD EVEN.

Now, people are hailing this as Ronaldo's greatest individual season, which it is.

But let's look at Messi's greatest season: 91 goals in a calendar year. And Messi repeatedly beats Ronaldo in assists.

It's not close if you want to compare whose peak is better. It's Messi's by miles. And that's being nice.

But last year, they were close. But club success for Ronaldo will allow him to win it (along with a great run in goals to start this Liga campaign).

Messi dropped in form. He came down to Ronaldo's level. But laughable to think Ronaldo is in Messi's league if you want to talk about career or their place in history.

There's a reason Messi is compared with Pele and Maradona. Ronaldo rare, if ever is.

 

[DonAndres]

In the games he was fit against Atletico last season he caused them more problems than any other player they faced.

I agree that Ronaldo deserves it this year and with pretty much all statements except for this one. Di Maria has been Atletico's nightmare this year without a doubt. He screwed them massively in the CDR first leg, set up Benzema's goal in the 2-2 league game, easily won MOTM in the CL final where he was the engine behind the victory, and even in his substitute appearance in this season's Supercup he managed to be a big danger and threat to Atletico.

The only time Ronaldo was really vital or key in Madrid derbies this year was when he managed to score the equalizer in the 2-2 league match (had a horrible game though) and this season's league match where he cleverly took notice of how much of a donkey Siqueira is and totally wrecked him on the RW.