10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[klc123]

...

It's time like these where I think the board aren't actually that bad. If they had some armchair managers in charge we would be relegated.

Just because we've been successful after clear-out's before doesn't mean that it is the best way to go about managing the club.

We should be building the team around our best/most dedicated players, not treating them like shit and then kicking them out for money when there is no one to buy.

 

[JackSparrow]

If he leaves to Chelsea then Penaldo will surpas him within 2 seasons in all time scoring lists in Primera Division. Just saying

 

[Kohe321]

The early elections might be the thing that keeps Messi in Barcelona. I have said it many times, but I really doubt he would've stayed if the current board stayed in power until 2016.

Perhaps he still is unsure, in which case I hope Laporta (who is the absolute favorite to win) can talk to him and convince him of staying, which no doubt will include revealing some of his plans of building the team back up. The thing is, even though it seems difficult for Chelsea to buy him with the FFP and whatnot, I do think there is a possibility that they could make it happen, especially if Messi wanted the move. And that is scary indeed, because if you look back at the rumor that Tito had to convince him of staying this past summer, what he said in the interview as he left for the WC about it being no problem if the club doesn't want him anymore, what he said about "things changing in football" some months ago, and this recent debacle, then it's obvious that he's not happy.

With the transferban, the ineptness of the current board and Lucho being a borderline crazy coach... Yeah, there are enough factors in play that Messi could actually wish to leave. The Barca Messi fell in love with from the early days is not the same Barca of the last few years under Rosells and Bartos reign, the club has turned almost unrecognizable. That is why what happened the last few days is incredibly important for the club, it could turn out to be the thing that made the difference that kept Messi in Barca.

So in a way, 2015 has so far been incredible for Barca if you look at the long-term and the bigger picture.

 

[Hamzah]

Thing is we are making a lot of money these days and can spend 80m on a player. With the break in window we will have a bumper budget in 2016. It's massively preferable to keep Messi and instead sell dead wood and bring in a fresh team in that summer.

Messi is good still and will continue to be good for this next cycle at least.

Why would we need to sell our best player (and a guy that attracts players to join us in the first place) when we have the money anyway?

 

[Leo_Messi]

Henk Ten Cate, Rijkaard's assistant in Barcelona, said this to Dutch De Telegraaf about Messi:
-- he says that Messi's problems started 2 Seasons ago
-- Messi stayed here because he gave a promise to ill Tito

-- further, Ten Cate thinks that a transfer of Messi would be the best option for everyone
-- he says that Messi has been here for too long and that he needs a fresh challenge
-- further, this is the only moment when Barcelona can get 200 Millions for him
-- he will be worth much less with each year passing by

-- further, Ten Cate would like if Messi would stay at Barca, but he thinks that Messi will never again return to his "best form"
-- he says that no player in the world can play for so long at that level, and that Messi's drop in form in the last few Seasons was expected for people who are long enough in football

-- further, he says that Messi still has some nice individual stats, but that it is obvious that he is declining

(Ten Cate was with Barcelona in Seasons 2004-05 and 2005-06. We won 2 La Ligas and 1 Champions with him in those 2 Seasons.
He was awesome in tactics and in working with players.
-- his ideas were also to start a new cycle in 2004, and Rijkaard, Ten Cate and Begiristain kicked all players from the previous generation and bought new, motivated players
When he left, Rijkaard's team never was the same as with him as assistant coach)

I agree with most of his points. Unfortunately.

If the club has to sell him it should happen this summer or never. I would hate to see him go but if it happens it will not be the end of the world if the new board manages to invest his transfer fee wisely.

Ten Cate was Rijkaard's assistant coach.
He came to work with us in a Season 2004-05.

So, in the first year, Rijkaard wasn't working with him.
When Ten Cate came, Laporta, sporting director Txiki Begiristain, Rijkaard and Ten Cate decided that they have "learned" their team in Rijkaard's first year here and that it is time to kick ALL players from the old system and to build a completely new team.

I was writing about that on some other topics, but ok.
One more time, in 2002-03, before Laporta, Rijkaard and Begiristain, we had in our team:
-- Gk: Bonano, Enke
-- defenders: F. De Boer, Reiziger, Patrick Andersson, Christanval, Sorin
-- midfielders: Cocu, Riquelme, Mendieta, Rochemback, Luis Enrique
-- forwards: Kluivert, Saviola, Overmars

-- that is 15 players
-- ALL of these 15 players were kicked/sold from our team when Laporta+Rijkaard+Begiristain+Ten Cate came
-- by 2004-05, Season they kept only few youngsters from that team, and decided to build a completely NEW team and cycle:
-- Gk: Valdes (22 year old back then)
-- Dc: Puyol (25 year old back then), Gabri (24 year old in 2003), Oleguer (23 year old back then)
-- Mc: Xavi (23 year old back then), Iniesta (19 years old back then), Motta (21 year old back then)

-- so, you see, Laporta and a new board+coaches sold ALL FOREIGN players
-- plus, all domestic players who were older
-- and they kept only 7 domestic La Masia products, the oldest player was 25 years old Puyol

-- Riquelme, Mendieta, Kluivert, Saviola, all superstars (like current Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Pique, Messi) were sold

All money earned from transfers was invested in a new generation of players who fitted our new 433 system.
And new players were "hungry" and motivated.

-- so, we kicked out 15 players and bought these players in the next 2 summers:
-- defenders: Marquez, Van Bronckhorst, Belletti, Sylvinho
-- midfielders: Edmilson, Deco, Van Bommel,
-- forwards: Ronaldinho, Etoo, Guily, Larsson, Ezquerro, Maxi Lopez

-- so, they kicked 15 players out
-- kept 7 younger La Masia products who have a motivation
-- and bought 13 new players for a new cycle, and promoted young Messi into a team

-- so, back then, I was asking mysfelf: "How will we survive without Kluivert and Saviola?"
= but a new board just bought even better players in Ronaldinho and Etoo

Further, 4-5 years later, when we won CL in 2006 with this new team, later that team declined and lost motivation (motivation and hunger always go in cycles)
-- and then, Laporta hired Pep, who did EXACTLY the same thing as Rijkaard and Ten Cate a few years before:
-- they sold Ronaldinho, Etoo, Deco, and basically all players whom Rijkaard bought
-- from Rijkaard's team, Pep used only Rafa Marquez and Sylvinho
-- so, he sold AGAIN the whole Rijkaard's team

Back then, I again thought: Is our new coach an idiot? You can't sell Ronaldinho, Deco and Etoo...
What happened?
= we entered into a new cycle with even better team than in Rijkaard's era and now we won even 2 Champions league titles...

So, in that sense, Ten Cate is a coach. He knows "the stuff" and those cycles and motivation/hunger issues are repeating each 4-5 years in all clubs, in all sports around the world.
You don't need to sell THE WHOLE team each time, but you need to get some new blood and new leaders each few years.

-- in Rijkaard's team, only 1 player (Deco) has previously won Champions league
-- so, you can imagine why our team played like crazy, and why all the guys cried that much after Belletti scored a winner for 2:1 in 2006' against Arsenal

-- today?
-- Pique won everything
-- Alves won everything
-- Xavi won everything
-- Iniesta won everything
-- Busi won everything
-- Messi won everything

We all love these players and they gave so much, but objectively, this is not a perfect mixture of players if you want to build a new generation.

So, in that sense, Ten Cate's words aren't that crazy at all.
If Rijkaard and him would be back again, they would probably sell Messi for 150 or 200 Millions.
Along with some other guys (Pique, Busi, Iniesta).
Imagine a 250 or 300 Millions earned from these guys, plus "a regular" 100 Millions for transfers from a new board.
You would have 400 Millions for a new cycle.
-- Reus 50 Millions, Koke 60 Millions
-- that is only 110 M spent
-- you still have 290 M to spent (Odegaard, Isco, 100s of possibilities), and you already have Neymar, Suarez, Mats and all of other players.

Again, I am not selling that we SHOULD sell Messi, but that wouldn't be the end of the world.
And some coaches wouldn't have anything against it.

We have already sold Rivaldo, Ronaldinho and Etoo in previous cycles, and we were again the best team in the world in the next cycle.

If we sell Messi or not, in 5-6 years he will surely leave.
So, we will have to live without Messi surely one day.

If he will be unhappy in the future, then a 150 or 200M deal, really won't be the end of the world.

:beer2:

 

[Kohe321]

Thing is we are making a lot of money these days and can spend 80m on a player. With the break in window we will have a bumper budget in 2016. It's massively preferable to keep Messi and instead sell dead wood and bring in a fresh team in that summer.

Messi is good still and will continue to be good for this next cycle at least.

Why would we need to sell our best player (and a guy that attracts players to join us in the first place) when we have the money anyway?

Indeed, the new board can buy a lot in the summer of 2016 with the extended budget, and Messi will still be incredible then, so the new project should keep building around him and Neymar. The fans that want to sell him to "cash in now" forget that having Messi in your club also gives you insane amounts of income from him just being here. Selling Messi would without any doubt be the biggest mistake the club could do now.

His form the last few months both for Barca and for Argentina has been incredible by the way.

 

[Hamzah]

It's time like these where I think the board aren't actually that bad. If they had some armchair managers in charge we would be relegated.

Just because we've been successful after clear-out's before doesn't mean that it is the best way to go about managing the club.

We should be building the team around our best/most dedicated players, not treating them like shit and then kicking them out for money when there is no one to buy.

We do need a clear out but Messi isn't included IMO.

 

[bismp]

Messi should be the last player to go.He isn't R10,Saviola,Riquelme,Eto'o,Deco etc.....he is the GOAT!A club legend,a la masia product,the alltime greatest La Liga and UCL scorer and the greatest B'Dor winner of all time.If he wanrs ro stay,he should stay until he retires.

 

[JamDav1982]

Messi should be the last player to go.He isn't R10,Saviola,Riquelme,Eto'o,Deco etc.....he is the GOAT!A club legend,a la masia product,the alltime greatest La Liga and UCL scorer and the greatest B'Dor winner of all time.If he wanrs ro stay,he should stay until he retires.

I disagree with that completely.

If the time comes that it is right to sell Messi then Barca need a board strong enough to do it.

Not saying that time is now but this idea that he stay no matter what isnt healthy for the club. All decisions need to be made for the clubs best interest and thats it.

 

[akaranzo]

I disagree with that completely.

If the time comes that it is right to sell Messi then Barca need a board strong enough to do it.

Not saying that time is now but this idea that he stay no matter what isnt healthy for the club. All decisions need to be made for the clubs best interest and thats it.

+1 if any player has difficulties with motivation to play for the club, they need to go, no matter how good they've been for us.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi should be the last player to go.He isn't R10,Saviola,Riquelme,Eto'o,Deco etc.....he is the GOAT!A club legend,a la masia product,the alltime greatest La Liga and UCL scorer and the greatest B'Dor winner of all time.If he wanrs ro stay,he should stay until he retires.

Ok.
I am just saying, IF, what IF he starts to play like in the last Season, when he was "saving" himself for a World cup.
And when he looks bored on the field.
Also, if you don't want to sell Messi, you also "can't" sell Neymar (he is young and motivated) and Suarez (we have just bought him)

So, we will start a new cycle, but MSN attack stays the same.
That means that you are entering a new cycle again with Messi-pendencia.
Also, Messi won't play a RW. A new coach, same old problems.

Then if you don't want to sell Messi, in order to get fresh, motivated players, you have to do a lot of clean-up in some other areas.
If Messi stays, then Xavi and Iniesta (and probably Busi) have to go.

I mean, you can't enter the new cycle and a start a fresh beginning, and then again play with:
-- Busi+Iniesta+one new player
-- Neymar+Suarez+Messi

What then? Our new cycle would then mean=a new coach, a new RB, one new MC and maybe a new DC.

It doesn't "sound" too promising.
More likely that the same issues from the last 3-4 Seasons would repeat in 2015-16 right away, even with a new coach.

We have to be sentimetal to some extent, but you can't keep ALL the players.
Again, we would never have Rijkaard's and Pep's era if those coaches would have been too sentimental about previous generations of players.

1. either Messi has to go
2. either Xavi+Iniesta+Busi+Alves+Pique+Pedro etc
3. either all of them
= if you want a new cycle, and not living in Pep's shadow forever.

The current players won't EVER repeat Pep's success.
Accept it.

 

[Kohe321]

+1 if any player has difficulties with motivation to play for the club, they need to go, no matter how good they've been for us.

Of course, who would disagree with that. But I highly doubt Messi will have any problem with motivation playing for us if just our management and coach is competent. He loves the club, and has put down a good effort so far this season even with a manager that seems to decide his starting lineup every week by way of throwing darts at a wall full of pictures of the players.

 

[Alik]

Ok.
I am just saying, IF, what IF he starts to play like in the last Season, when he was "saving" himself for a World cup.
And when he looks bored on the field.
Also, if you don't want to sell Messi, you also "can't" sell Neymar (he is young and motivated) and Suarez (we have just bought him)

That's the thing though. It makes no sense to sell Messi even if he doesn't provide GOAT performances game in game out, but keeping Suarez. What has Suarez done that merits him staying and Messi being sold?

Then if you don't want to sell Messi, in order to get fresh, motivated players, you have to do a lot of clean-up in some other areas.
If Messi stays, then Xavi and Iniesta (and probably Busi) have to go.

That makes sense. Messi is younger and in better form than them.

 

[JamDav1982]

There absolutely has to be a clear out of players and should have happened last summer.

This group has reached a peak and level that no other team in history has. Led by Guardiola.

No other manager will ever measure up and can see constant conflict between players and whoever is in charge.

The only players I would 100% keep would be Busquets and a motivated Messi.

 

[Alik]

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