10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[evilhita666]

I agree. The best we've seen from Messi was when Villa and Pedro were very good by his side, and there was space. Or when Iniesta had his best season(12-13), assisting left and right.
The way things are now, I don't think the false 9 works anymore. Teams found a way to nulifiy it. Messi needs a 9 in front of him. He won't get space everytime.

The thing about the real #9 intrigues me... People have crucified Tata and will crucify whoever comes for trying to modify the "style", people have cried murder for placing Messi as an AM instead of closer to the goal, so it looks that introducing such a change will have too much resistance unless it provides immediate results, which I think is a very difficult thing to happen...

So how do you think Tata, or whoever is here next season should go about it? What players can fit the #9 role? What other changes should take place to accommodate a pure striker?

 

[Sumlit]

Nope - what I am saying is to suggest that Messi needs players to get the ball to him in goal scoring positions to be effective means he is not the player he was.

That is clear as day and what makes Messi different is that he does not rely on other players to be able to make a difference or influence the game like you suggest.

You are the one speaking crap and making excuses for him being poor and not trying.

Messi is a forward, forwards need service from midfield to be effective. Yes Messi is the best player in the world, and yes, he is capable of doing things all by himself. Does that mean the team should rely and expect him to do things by himself every single time things start to go south? Hell no. that is beyond ridiculous and irrational.

Messi is still capable of making things happen even when he isn't getting service, however to demand and expect him to do it on command, even when the entire team is so clearly playing like shit, this is beyond ridiculous.

Finally, I repeat myself, because you clearly are not grasping things. I did not make excuses for Messi, nor did I say he played well. However, for you to over criticize him like this, when the very few positive things for Barcelona today came mainly from Messi's boots, this is what I have a problem with.

You did not seem to have a problem excusing Neymar's pathetic display because "at least he tried".

 

[aki13]

Its not changed since his comeback. I didn't watch the game today. I was out, but since his comeback he is not the same player and may never be again. (By which I mean the best player of all time 2011-2013)

He is still a fantastic player and when he switches it on he can just score, but I feel that everyone expecting him to be as good as he was is silly.

That was his career peak and while he is still the best in the world, you can never reach a 2nd peak. That in mind, its up to management or club to get the best out of him. Or drop him if need be.

 

[Sumlit]

You're wrong, Flavia. A false 9 is a mobile position and Messi's being static for most of the time. They're not compatible anymore because Messi isn't as willing to make it work in the effort department.

The false 9 depends on the entire dynamic of midfield and forwards to work. When the midfield cannot control and provide, and when the wingers cannot score and are masters in disappearing from games, what is there to stop the opposing team from just encasing Messi in a web of defenders? Nothing.

 

[Sumlit]

Its not changed since his comeback. I didn't watch the game today. I was out, but since his comeback he is not the same player and may never be again. (By which I mean the best player of all time 2011-2013)

He is still a fantastic player and when he switches it on he can just score, but I feel that everyone expecting him to be as good as he was is silly.

That was his career peak and while he is still the best in the world, you can never reach a 2nd peak. That in mind, its up to management or club to get the best out of him. Or drop him if need be.

Yeah, lets drop Messi. That'll really solve the team's problems.

 

[ZenI]

Messi is a forward, forwards need service from midfield to be effective. Yes Messi is the best player in the world, and yes, he is capable of doing things all by himself. Does that mean the team should rely and expect him to do things by himself every single time things start to go south? Hell no. that is beyond ridiculous and irrational.

Messi is still capable of making things happen even when he isn't getting service, however to demand and expect him to do it on command, even when the entire team is so clearly playing like shit, this is beyond ridiculous.

Finally, I repeat myself, because you clearly are not grasping things. I did not make excuses for Messi, nor did I say he played well. However, for you to over criticize him like this, when the very few positive things for Barcelona today came mainly from Messi's boots, this is what I have a problem with.

You did not seem to have a problem excusing Neymar's pathetic display because "at least he tried".

But all to often, even if our midfield has a great game, he doesn't really make any runs. He is dropping deep, just walks around in front of the opponents midfield. What service are you talking about since he isn't even trying to make a run?

 

[JamDav1982]

Messi is a forward, forwards need service from midfield to be effective. Yes Messi is the best player in the world, and yes, he is capable of doing things all by himself. Does that mean the team should rely and expect him to do things by himself every single time things start to go south? Hell no. that is beyond ridiculous and irrational.

Messi is still capable of making things happen even when he isn't getting service, however to demand and expect him to do it on command, even when the entire team is so clearly playing like shit, this is beyond ridiculous.

Finally, I repeat myself, because you clearly are not grasping things. I did not make excuses for Messi, nor did I say he played well. However, for you to over criticize him like this, when the very few positive things for Barcelona today came mainly from Messi's boots, this is what I have a problem with.

You did not seem to have a problem excusing Neymar's pathetic display because "at least he tried".

Well done on totally changing what the point was!

Where on earth have I claimed that he needs to take the whole team on and score?!!!

If you think Messi needs his team mates so completely that they have to give him the ball in dangerous areas then we both see a very different player.

Messi has never been that and never will be.

That goal was the one moment in game he had ball in good area. So does that mean he just strolls around and has no affect on the game till the next time he gets ball 'in good area'?

No, what makes Messi the best ever is that he can influence the game an a number of ways and can impose himself on the game.

He barely made any effort to.

 

[Flavia]

You're wrong, Flavia. A false 9 is a mobile position and Messi's being static for most of the time. They're not compatible anymore because Messi isn't as willing to make it work in the effort department.

He always has a wall in front of him. It's harder to make 1-2's. It's not just about him being static. Playing with a 9, like he's doing for argentina, would do wonders for him.

 

[JamDav1982]

He always has a wall in front of him. It's harder to make 1-2's. It's not just about him being static. Playing with a 9, like he's doing for argentina, would do wonders for him.

His lack of movement in games like tonight makes it easier for the other team to create that wall.

Barcelona are now at the point where they are indulging Messi in the false nine role to the detriment of the team as a whole.

 

[Agri]

The shoes looks good on him.

 

[serghei]

Messi is a forward, forwards need service from midfield to be effective. Yes Messi is the best player in the world, and yes, he is capable of doing things all by himself. Does that mean the team should rely and expect him to do things by himself every single time things start to go south? Hell no. that is beyond ridiculous and irrational.

Messi is still capable of making things happen even when he isn't getting service, however to demand and expect him to do it on command, even when the entire team is so clearly playing like shit, this is beyond ridiculous.

Finally, I repeat myself, because you clearly are not grasping things. I did not make excuses for Messi, nor did I say he played well. However, for you to over criticize him like this, when the very few positive things for Barcelona today came mainly from Messi's boots, this is what I have a problem with.

You did not seem to have a problem excusing Neymar's pathetic display because "at least he tried".

No. Messi, in his best years had a weapon no other footballer had. He could occupy any position in midfield and attack at the specific time when the play needed it. A false 9 is a player that does fill in the classic no9 position when his presence there is needed, but leaves it when it's not, to create danger in other areas, such as the midfield. Many times Messi initiated an action in midfield and, seconds later, appeared in the box and scored from the action he himself started. That's something he doesn't do anymore. Now, he starts an action but is too lazy to bother to follow it through. He is sometimes a midfielder and sometimes a classic no. 9. He's not a false 9 these days anymore because, as I said, he doesn't work as hard as he used to.

 

[SeloBarca]

They really gotta get him to make more movement of the ball. No matter how brilliant he is with the ball, he gotta open up space for others aswell.
HIs acceleration isnt up to standards either. He could get away from hsi defender by acceleration before, but he cant anymore.

 

[Kohe321]

You're wrong, Flavia. A false 9 is a mobile position and Messi's being static for most of the time. They're not compatible anymore because Messi isn't as willing to make it work in the effort department.

This is completely true. The false nine still works fine, but it requires Messi to be lively and mobile. If he is lazy, then the team effectively plays without a striker. The wingers will run up, face 2-3 defenders and be forced to pass back. There was a huge gaping space in the middle that should have been occupied by Messi in this game, but most of the time weren't, as he was strolling along around the midfield. When he's lazy like tonight I feel he won't start to move into position in attack if he's not directly involved in starting it himself, he'll just walk from the midfield slowly towards the goal...

It's hard to understand why he should be so lazy, but it's becoming more and more clear. Right now it would be better playing with a true 9 in front of him as it would give him more space to move with the ball and more time to find deadly passes. I wonder if he's becoming tired of playing the false nine position? I don't know, it just seems inexplicable why he should become unmotivated and unwilling to do the bare minimum of the required movement during an important match like this. What gives?

 

[serghei]

This is completely true. The false nine still works fine, but it requires Messi to be lively and mobile. If he is lazy, then the team effectively plays without a striker. The wingers will run up, face 2-3 defenders and be forced to pass back. There was a huge gaping space in the middle that should have been occupied by Messi in this game, but most of the time weren't, as he was strolling along around the midfield. When he's lazy like tonight I feel he won't start to move into position in attack if he's not directly involved in starting it himself, he'll just walk from the midfield slowly towards the goal...

It's hard to understand why he should be so lazy, but it's becoming more and more clear. Right now it would be better playing with a true 9 in front of him as it would give him more space to move with the ball and more time to find deadly passes. I wonder if he's becoming tired of playing the false nine position? I don't know, it just seems inexplicable why he should become unmotivated and unwilling to do the bare minimum of the required movement during an important match like this. What gives?

Exactly. We play like an odd 442 with two wingers instead of central strikers.

 

[hulinat]

Just play Neymar as a striker and Messi on the right wing or as a midfielder