10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[JamDav1982]

I'm not changing anything, your whole narrative today has been that Messi's lack of movement and involvement was a major reason for the team's performance. You just said "it was inhibiting other forward's performance." the fact that the whole team was bad, and you're focusing your blame on the player who actually had the most positives and saying he needed to do more so that the other players in turn, did more, well that speaks to the absurdity of your argument.

You seem to think the fact that Messi scored means that he cannot get any blame for the attack being so poor before and after that. Which I dont agree with and think he is a major part of it being so poor.

That is not the case, one goal does not give him a free pass to stroll about and barely put in effort for the rest of the game when the team needs him.

The rest of the team were terrible, I have said that countless times.

But the best players ever raise the level of the team mates, they lead by example and make things happen.

Like it or not but if the attack of a team is built around a player and that player is one of many that is poor that will be the player that takes the most criticism.

 

[DonAndres]

Just like Sumlit you are making up what people are saying then arguing against it.

The reason Messi gets more criticism and more focus is because the team is built around him and he putting in such a lack of effort and movement affects the team more than any other player.

You're willing to criticize but not praise? I could just as easily say that he's the only one today who did anything of note, while the team around him sucked in majority. He leads the team and they're built around him, but you're literally trying to make him the scapegoat BECAUSE of that. He takes the biggest praise when we do well because often times he plays the best. That doesn't mean that it translates straight to 'If we play bad-->Messi because he's the center of the team'.

I'm not making anything up, you've literally said that his lack of movement "destroyed" the attack and picked him out as the one who affected our poor performance the most because of his lack of effort and movement. This isn't out of thin air, it's the words of you and many others. He did what he could, had a reasonable performance given the state of our play today, and he doesn't deserve to be bashed for it because he was least at fault for it.

 

[serghei]

Again, how is this related to my comment? I was speaking about the false 9 role. If Messi needs to drop deeper these days, that's more evidence of the lack of performance by the surrounding support.

Messi always drops deep. That's what false 9s do. You should stop looking at Messi like you're looking at a regular striker. He's a player that starts the action in the midfield and from there he appears in the box. He isn't served. He's making the play, often initiates it. How many times have we seen the trajectory Messi (midfield, playing as a 10) -Iniesta-Xavi-Messi (now as a 9)-Goal?

You say Messi wasn't served. I say he never was the type of player waiting to be served. He puts things in motion, he creates. Pazzini can shrug his shoulders if the midfield doesn't work. The great Messi can't, 'cause the whole zone between the upper midfield and the attack is pretty much his area of expertise. He PLAYS there. If it doesn't work, it's his fault as much as it is Iniesta's for example.

 

[JamDav1982]

You're willing to criticize but not praise? I could just as easily say that he's the only one today who did anything of note, while the team around him sucked in majority. He leads the team and they're built around him, but you're literally trying to make him the scapegoat BECAUSE of that. He takes the biggest praise when we do well because often times he plays the best. That doesn't mean that it translates straight to 'If we play bad-->Messi because he's the center of the team'.

I'm not making anything up, you've literally said that his lack of movement "destroyed" the attack and picked him out as the one who affected our poor performance the most because of his lack of effort and movement. This isn't out of thin air, it's the words of you and many others. He did what he could, had a reasonable performance given the state of our play today, and he doesn't deserve to be bashed for it because he was least at fault for it.

I have said that all the players played poorly the difference was for me that Messi put in the least effort and movement.

It is no different from countless games have seen from Ronaldo at Real Madrid where he has scored in a big game but then generally been poor. The fact that the attack is built round him meaning the team failed as they were to reliant on him and he failed to produce.

If Messi had been constantly on the move tonight, getting involved in build up play and looking to take the game over he would have had far more influeunce than that one goal.

When the attack is built round one player as much as Messi then they need to do more than score a goal when it is provided to them in a good area.

Messi is better than that.

 

[Sumlit]

Why do those wingers that struggle to 'score on their own' score more when Messi is not in the team?

This is patently false. As a matter of fact, both Alexis and Pedro have scored more with Messi on the field.

The attack is built round Messi more than any other player in the world and when he is not moving or seemingly putting in a lot of effort idt can break down and MESSI takes a massive part of that responsibilty for that.

He like all the other top players can stamp their authority on games and make things happen. When he doesnt do that and strolls about, he like more than any other player takes the blame for the attack being do lifeless.

He can stamp his authority, and he often does, however he cannot always do it all by himself. The team needs to play better. If the team plays like crap, to demand and expect that Messi succeed amid all that crap is, again, unreasonable. Other players play for Barcelona as well, they are not some scrubs.

 

[psychotsek]

Just like Sumlit you are making up what people are saying then arguing against it.

The reason Messi gets more criticism and more focus is because the team is built around him and he putting in such a lack of effort and movement affects the team more than any other player.

The team is build around Messi,Xavi,Iniesta and Busi.When they don't deliver the team just can't perform.Messi is such a great player that countless times when the other 3 underperformed he alone won matches for us.But a team simply can't rely on just one player even if this player is Messi.We haven't consistently played as a team the last two seasons.Yes there were periods when we played well but i think this was due to the brilliance of the individuals rather than team work.Unfortunatelly i don't know if I'm frustrated by the loss but i haven't seen our players now exactly what to do since Pep left (and i wasn't even a big fan of him) .

 

[JamDav1982]

This is patently false. As a matter of fact, both Alexis and Pedro have scored more with Messi on the field.



He can stamp his authority, and he often does, however he cannot always do it all by himself. The team needs to play better. If the team plays like crap, to demand and expect that Messi succeed amid all that crap is, again, unreasonable. Other players play for Barcelona as well, they are not some scrubs.

No one is saying he needs to win the game on his own.

You can keep repeating that and try and make it a point you are arguing with if you like.

What he does need to do is try and influence the game more than one time he is given the ball in a position to score.

 

[Sumlit]

Messi always drops deep. That's what false 9s do. You should stop looking at Messi like you're looking at a regular striker. He's a player that starts the action in the midfield and from there he appears in the box. He isn't served. He's making the play, often initiates it. How many times have we seen the trajectory Messi (midfield, playing as a 10) -Iniesta-Xavi-Messi (now as a 9)-Goal?

You say Messi wasn't served. I say he never was the type of player waiting to be served. He puts things in motion, he creates. Pazzini can shrug his shoulders if the midfield doesn't work. The great Messi can't, 'cause the whole zone between the upper midfield and the attack is pretty much his area of expertise. He PLAYS there. If it doesn't work, it's his fault as much as it is Iniesta's for example.

You're the one who appears to not know what he/she is talking about. False 9 means a CF without a fix position. He can occupy the CF spot, but he can also drift deeper and distribute game. To say that a false 9 "isn't served" is beyond ridiculous. Despite the name of the position, he still has the duties of a central forward. He still receives service and converts it to goals. The fact that he also gets involved in the build up and also provides service, does not mean he cannot receive it.

Your whole comment is nonsensical.

 

[Sumlit]

No one is saying he needs to win the game on his own.

You can keep repeating that and try and make it a point you are arguing with if you like.

What he does need to do is try and influence the game more than one time he is given the ball in a position to score.

Other players be damned right. Messi needs to influence the game more, other players, they are just there to "try hard."

 

[JamDav1982]

Other players be damned right. Messi needs to influence the game more, other players, they are just there to "try hard."

What in earth are you going on about?

Yes Messi does need to influence the game more than other players, the system is built round him.

He is not the type of player that completely needs other players to make things happen for him.

 

[SeloBarca]

Of course he can, he did it when he got the penalty vs man city.

That wasent as much his acceleration as starting the run earlier

 

[Sumlit]

What in earth are you going on about?

Yes Messi does need to influence the game more than other players, the system is built round him.

He is not the type of player that completely needs other players to make things happen for him.

And when does the influence of Messi stops, and the other players individual contribution starts? Your argument would make sense if the players had done their part, and Messi had thrown their efforts down the toilet. When in fact, it was Messi who did more, and the others who threw his contribution away.

You want Messi to influence the game more, but how about asking the simple task of the others to also do their part. As I saw it, the only one who affected the game today with anything positive was Messi and Iniesta.

If you want to sit here and demand Messi for more, but then are content with Neymar and Pedro "just trying", then I've nothing further to speak about this.

 

[DonAndres]

I have said that all the players played poorly the difference was for me that Messi put in the least effort and movement.

It is no different from countless games have seen from Ronaldo at Real Madrid where he has scored in a big game but then generally been poor. The fact that the attack is built round him meaning the team failed as they were to reliant on him and he failed to produce.

If Messi had been constantly on the move tonight, getting involved in build up play and looking to take the game over he would have had far more influeunce than that one goal.

When the attack is built round one player as much as Messi then they need to do more than score a goal when it is provided to them in a good area.

Messi is better than that.

You keep repeating that he lacked movement and that he should've been moving more when in reality what chance did he have to do that? Most of the time before Song's sub, the team was either defending or struggling for possession deep in midfield. How often did we even have the chance to transition to attack, let alone Messi running everywhere and driving our buildup forward. All of our play was way too deep with the likes of Adriano and Montoya or Song getting the most touches, and most of the time pushed out well wide. There wasn't a chance for Messi to run back, collect the ball, and then find a channel to create something. Even when he did, he had very few passing options in his area with the lack of a forward moving team so unless he actually dribbled everyone he couldn't do anything effective.

If he ran more, it'd have no use and ultimately that'd correlate with your description of "Headless Chicken Alba". Your demands for Messi correlate with the scenario where the team was holding possession but playing very slowly and without the dynamism to get forward and overall being poor and useless. In that scenario, it's up to Messi to turn on and create something the way he does to inspire the team to score. This scenario was where we rarely transitioned out of defense, let alone midfield, and the system was so disconnected that our play was anarchic and had zero fluidity. There were few scenarios where Messi could get involved to influence the team, and even if he had tried it'd be needless running as there was no support to create anything.

 

[Antimadridista1]

Most awful performance of the season tonight, and he didn't play much.

 

[JamDav1982]

And when does the influence of Messi stops, and the other players individual contribution starts? Your argument would make sense if the players had done their part, and Messi had thrown their efforts down the toilet. When in fact, it was Messi who did more, and the others who threw his contribution away.

You want Messi to influence the game more, but how about asking the simple task of the others to also do their part. As I saw it, the only one who affected the game today with anything positive was Messi and Iniesta.

If you want to sit here and demand Messi for more, but then are content with Neymar and Pedro "just trying", then I've nothing further to speak about this.

I have repeated countless times how Messi playing like he did today affects the team more than any other player. You just dont get it I think.

As for claiming that it is a lie that Pedro and Sanchez have scored more without Messi here is the stats.

Pedro -

With Messi - 19 games 9 goals 6 assists
Without Mesi - 10 games 6 goals 3 assists

Sanchez -

With Messi - 19 games 9 goals 5 assists
Without Messi - 9 games 6 goals 5 asisists

In La Liga and EPL both have produce with Messi not there this season so get your facts straight before accusing other people of speaking rubbish.