10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Flavia]

They really gotta get him to make more movement of the ball. No matter how brilliant he is with the ball, he gotta open up space for others aswell.
HIs acceleration isnt up to standards either. He could get away from hsi defender by acceleration before, but he cant anymore.

Of course he can, he did it when he got the penalty vs man city.

This is completely true. The false 9 system still works fine, but it requires Messi to be lively and mobile. If he is lazy, then the team effectively plays without a striker. The wingers will run up, face 2-3 defenders and be forced to pass back. There was a huge gaping space in the middle that should have been occupied by Messi in this game, but most of the time weren't, as he was strolling along around the midfield. When he's lazy like tonight I feel he won't start to move into position in attack if he's not directly involved in starting it himself, he'll just walk from the midfield slowly towards the goal...

It's hard to understand why he should be so lazy, but it's becoming more and more clear. Right now it would be better playing with a true 9 in front of him as it would give him more space to move with the ball and more time to find deadly passes. I wonder if he's becoming tired of playing the false nine position? I don't know, it just seems inexplicable why he should become unmotivated and unwilling to do the bare minimum of the required movement during an important match like this. What gives?

Maybe he got tired of doing it all on his own (jk).

I think the false 9 doesn't work anymore, and not only because of Messi. That way of playing has been figured out. You guys talk as if it was always like that. In 10-11 Messi had more space, he didn't have 3-4 players on him all times.

 

[hulinat]

Of course he can, he did it when he got the penalty vs man city.

Against 34 year old Demichelis

 

[Sumlit]

I think the false 9 doesn't work anymore, and not only because of Messi. That way of playing has been figured out. You guys talk as if it was always like that. In 10-11 Messi had more space, he didn't have 3-4 players on him all times.

False 9 doesn't work because the midfield has lost a lot of mobility and the team has sterile wingers incapable of scoring on their own. The only constant threat is Messi, teams know this and surround him.

 

[JamDav1982]

False 9 doesn't work because the midfield has lost a lot of mobility and the team has sterile wingers incapable of scoring on their own. The only constant threat is Messi, teams know this and surround him.

If that is the case why are Pedro and Sanchez looking at their best ever goals scoring seasons - both of whom have scored more when Messi is not there.

It is more the case that lethargic performances like tonight from Messi inhibit the other players than the other way round.

Like it or not Messi is the leader of this team and the whole attack is built round him more so than any other player in the world.

He doesnt need excuses when he is as poor and barely trying tonight.

 

[serghei]

False 9 doesn't work because the midfield has lost a lot of mobility and the team has sterile wingers incapable of scoring on their own. The only constant threat is Messi, teams know this and surround him.

A false 9 plays for the most part in the upper midfield. So, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Sumlit]

Well done on totally changing what the point was!

Where on earth have I claimed that he needs to take the whole team on and score?!!!

If you think Messi needs his team mates so completely that they have to give him the ball in dangerous areas then we both see a very different player.

Messi has never been that and never will be.

That goal was the one moment in game he had ball in good area. So does that mean he just strolls around and has no affect on the game till the next time he gets ball 'in good area'?

No, what makes Messi the best ever is that he can influence the game an a number of ways and can impose himself on the game.

He barely made any effort to.

Messi needs his team mates to play their role and do their part. When you have Neymar and Pedro playing so totally horrible, Iniesta with a subdued performance for his standard, and Busquets and Song getting totally ran over, to demand of Messi to make things happen what would have been on his own, considering the ineffectiveness of his surrounding, is a very irrational request.
He has done it before, a testament to his talent, but he has also failed, which means even he cannot always rescue the team from the toilet. To demand he do it always and criticize him when he cannot, well that's just rubbish.

 

[JamDav1982]

Messi needs his team mates to play their role and do their part. When you have Neymar and Pedro playing so totally horrible, Iniesta with a subdued performance for his standard, and Busquets and Song getting totally ran over, to demand of Messi to make things happen what would have been on his own, considering the ineffectiveness of his surrounding, is a very irrational request.
He has done it before, a testament to his talent, but he has also failed, which means even he cannot always rescue the team from the toilet. To demand he do it always and criticize him when he cannot, well that's just rubbish.

Of course Messi needs his team mates to play their part who is saying any different?

You again are changing the argument and making out that I am claiming Messi should have turned the game around on his own. Where have I ever claimed that?

The fact is that Messi being poor will have a bigger impact on the attack than any other player.

Try and stick to what is even being said.

 

[Sumlit]

If that is the case why are Pedro and Sanchez looking at their best ever goals scoring seasons - both of whom have scored more when Messi is not there.

It is more the case that lethargic performances like tonight from Messi inhibit the other players than the other way round.

Like it or not Messi is the leader of this team and the whole attack is built round him more so than any other player in the world.

He doesnt need excuses when he is as poor and barely trying tonight.

How is the bulk of their scoring coming? Not from their individual play, that's for sure. When the midfield is in trouble, none of our wingers can make things happen on their own. This has been evident plenty of times.

It is so beyond absurd that in a day like today, when the entire team plays like utter garbage, you're here placing the majority of the blame on "Messi's lethargy is inhibiting other player's performance" What a load of hot garbage. I thought you were smarter than that to be honest.

 

[Sumlit]

A false 9 plays for the most part in the upper midfield. So, you don't know what you're talking about.

What? How is this related to my comment?

 

[serghei]

What? How is this related to my comment?

Well, since you're saying that the midfield wasn't working, and since Messi's been a big part of Barca's midfield zone since 2009, that incriminates Messi a lot to be honest. Let's get something straight. Messi plays 90% in midfield these days.

 

[JamDav1982]

How is the bulk of their scoring coming? Not from their individual play, that's for sure. When the midfield is in trouble, none of our wingers can make things happen on their own. This has been evident plenty of times.

It is so beyond absurd that in a day like today, when the entire team plays like utter garbage, you're here placing the majority of the blame on "Messi's lethargy is inhibiting other player's performance" What a load of hot garbage. I thought you were smarter than that to be honest.

Why do those wingers that struggle to 'score on their own' score more when Messi is not in the team?

The attack is built round Messi more than any other player in the world and when he is not moving or seemingly putting in a lot of effort idt can break down and MESSI takes a massive part of that responsibilty for that.

He like all the other top players can stamp their authority on games and make things happen. When he doesnt do that and strolls about, he like more than any other player takes the blame for the attack being do lifeless.

 

[Sumlit]

Of course Messi needs his team mates to play their part who is saying any different?

You again are changing the argument and making out that I am claiming Messi should have turned the game around on his own. Where have I ever claimed that?

The fact is that Messi being poor will have a bigger impact on the attack than any other player.

Try and stick to what is even being said.

I'm not changing anything, your whole narrative today has been that Messi's lack of movement and involvement was a major reason for the team's performance. You just said "it was inhibiting other forward's performance." the fact that the whole team was bad, and you're focusing your blame on the player who actually had the most positives and saying he needed to do more so that the other players in turn, did more, well that speaks to the absurdity of your argument.

 

[DonAndres]

Messi is a forward, forwards need service from midfield to be effective. Yes Messi is the best player in the world, and yes, he is capable of doing things all by himself. Does that mean the team should rely and expect him to do things by himself every single time things start to go south? Hell no. that is beyond ridiculous and irrational.

Messi is still capable of making things happen even when he isn't getting service, however to demand and expect him to do it on command, even when the entire team is so clearly playing like shit, this is beyond ridiculous.

Finally, I repeat myself, because you clearly are not grasping things. I did not make excuses for Messi, nor did I say he played well. However, for you to over criticize him like this, when the very few positive things for Barcelona today came mainly from Messi's boots, this is what I have a problem with.

You did not seem to have a problem excusing Neymar's pathetic display because "at least he tried".

+1000

Out of all players in the world, Messi can create the most with the smallest amount of material. Even then he still does need material.

Today our CM was completely bypassed with the whole Busi-Song thing, this left us to be the team defending and reacting most of the time rather than the team imposing on the game. On top of that, when we did have the ball the play rarely went through the middle and rarely transitioned forward. It's like we had to work our way around the obstacle that was our midfield to get it up front and even then Pedro/Neymar sucked. We were disconnected for a majority of the match and then after conceding so often the morale went to shit too. Despite all this hindering Messi's service to be minimal at most, he still managed to score and get involved regularly (towards the end he had 2 chances as well as a great throughball).

He had little to work with, yet still managed a pretty decent output. In a storm of crap playing around him, it's kind of difficult to find success and play to his full ability. It is a team game. Obviously Messi isn't just the kind of player who just feeds off his teammates providing him amazing service, but he can't be expected to do everything. This isn't to paint some sort of picture as if he was playing his heart out yet the team sucked, but he doesn't deserve any sort of special criticism. He wasn't responsible for our shit play but was a victim to it. Could he have tried a bit harder? Yeah, but this isn't some imaginary world where Messi can pull out a 10/10 game in both effort and performance when everything around him is horrible.

 

[Sumlit]

Well, since you're saying that the midfield wasn't working, and since Messi's been a big part of Barca's midfield zone since 2009, that incriminates Messi a lot to be honest. Let's get something straight. Messi plays 90% in midfield these days.

Again, how is this related to my comment? I was speaking about the false 9 role. If Messi needs to drop deeper these days, that's more evidence of the lack of performance by the surrounding support.

 

[JamDav1982]

+1000

Out of all players in the world, Messi can create the most with the smallest amount of material. Even then he still does need material.

Today our CM was completely bypassed with the whole Busi-Song thing, this left us to be the team defending and reacting most of the time rather than the team imposing on the game. On top of that, when we did have the ball the play rarely went through the middle and rarely transitioned forward. It's like we had to work our way around the obstacle that was our midfield to get it up front and even then Pedro/Neymar sucked. We were disconnected for a majority of the match and then after conceding so often the morale went to shit too. Despite all this hindering Messi's service to be minimal at most, he still managed to score and get involved regularly (towards the end he had 2 chances as well as a great throughball).

He had little to work with, yet still managed a pretty decent output. In a storm of crap playing around him, it's kind of difficult to find success and play to his full ability. It is a team game. Obviously Messi isn't just the kind of player who just feeds off his teammates providing him amazing service, but he can't be expected to do everything. This isn't to paint some sort of picture as if he was playing his heart out yet the team sucked, but he doesn't deserve any sort of special criticism. He wasn't responsible for our shit play but was a victim to it. Could he have tried a bit harder? Yeah, but this isn't some imaginary world where Messi can pull out a 10/10 game in both effort and performance when everything around him is horrible.

Just like Sumlit you are making up what people are saying then arguing against it.

The reason Messi gets more criticism and more focus is because the team is built around him and he putting in such a lack of effort and movement affects the team more than any other player.