10 - Lionel Messi - v3

Status
Not open for further replies.

JamDav1982

Senior Member
You keep repeating that he lacked movement and that he should've been moving more when in reality what chance did he have to do that? Most of the time before Song's sub, the team was either defending or struggling for possession deep in midfield. How often did we even have the chance to transition to attack, let alone Messi running everywhere and driving our buildup forward. All of our play was way too deep with the likes of Adriano and Montoya or Song getting the most touches, and most of the time pushed out well wide. There wasn't a chance for Messi to run back, collect the ball, and then find a channel to create something. Even when he did, he had very few passing options in his area with the lack of a forward moving team so unless he actually dribbled everyone he couldn't do anything effective.

If he ran more, it'd have no use and ultimately that'd correlate with your description of "Headless Chicken Alba". Your demands for Messi correlate with the scenario where the team was holding possession but playing very slowly and without the dynamism to get forward and overall being poor and useless. In that scenario, it's up to Messi to turn on and create something the way he does to inspire the team to score. This scenario was where we rarely transitioned out of defense, let alone midfield, and the system was so disconnected that our play was anarchic and had zero fluidity. There were few scenarios where Messi could get involved to influence the team, and even if he had tried it'd be needless running as there was no support to create anything.

Again you are deciding my argument and then going against it.

Where have I have ever said that Messi has to run everywhere like a headless chicken?

Messi is the most important person in the system and when he plays like he does today it breaks down, more so than any of the other players you are trying to blame.

Why does the other players playing poorly make Messi barely try? That is a ridiculous thing to say and if it is the case then Messi is not the player we all think he is.
 

El Padrino

New member
They really gotta get him to make more movement of the ball. No matter how brilliant he is with the ball, he gotta open up space for others aswell.
HIs acceleration isnt up to standards either. He could get away from hsi defender by acceleration before, but he cant anymore.

You say he can't but i still think he can, but he just won't. Maybe because he is scared of another injury? Who knows, but at 26 you won't start loosing speed that dramatic thats for sure.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Again you are deciding my argument and then going against it.

Where have I have ever said that Messi has to run everywhere like a headless chicken?

Messi is the most important person in the system and when he plays like he does today it breaks down, more so than any of the other players you are trying to blame.

Why does the other players playing poorly make Messi barely try? That is a ridiculous thing to say and if it is the case then Messi is not the player we all think he is.

You're not even responding to my post, just saying the same thing over and over again. The system was broken today to begin with, Messi had the least negative impact let alone the worst. You saying he should've "tried harder" does not apply at all to a game like this since our performance wasn't a matter of him trying. If the team are slow and need inspiration in possession, it's his job to create and marshall our attacking play. If we're defending or playing from our defense 80% of the time, what do you expect Messi to do? There wasn't a scenario where his trying harder would've been the difference maker as our shortcomings weren't related to him, they were related to our midfield and eventually our defense.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
You're not even responding to my post, just saying the same thing over and over again. The system was broken today to begin with, Messi had the least negative impact let alone the worst. You saying he should've "tried harder" does not apply at all to a game like this since our performance wasn't a matter of him trying. If the team are slow and need inspiration in possession, it's his job to create and marshall our attacking play. If we're defending or playing from our defense 80% of the time, what do you expect Messi to do? There wasn't a scenario where his trying harder would've been the difference maker as our shortcomings weren't related to him, they were related to our midfield and eventually our defense.

Barcelona actually dominated the ball and did not play 80% of the game out of defence.

The majority of the game was in the Sociedad half where Messi operates.

He contributed hugely to an impotent attack one goal doesnt change that, he barley moved off the ball and in a system that is totally built around him, him being poor affects the attack more than any other player.
 

El Padrino

New member
DonAndres, i don't think we we're watching the same game. Messi was plain lazy, i remember one specific attack where Iniesta had the ball on the left, and only had Neymar to pass to who i believe who was marked, and where was Messi, thats right, walking, walking slowly upfield without a care in the world.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
I have repeated countless times how Messi playing like he did today affects the team more than any other player. You just dont get it I think.

As for claiming that it is a lie that Pedro and Sanchez have scored more without Messi here is the stats.

Pedro -

With Messi - 19 games 9 goals 6 assists
Without Mesi - 10 games 6 goals 3 assists

Sanchez -

With Messi - 19 games 9 goals 5 assists
Without Messi - 9 games 6 goals 5 asisists

In La Liga and EPL both have produce with Messi not there this season so get your facts straight before accusing other people of speaking rubbish.

In La Liga:

Alexis has played 21 games. I wont count today because he came in too late into that shambolic mess and did not score. So 20 games.

With Messi - 12 games - 9 goals - 3 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 1.00
Without Messi - 8 games - 6 goals - 3 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 1.13

Pedro has played 24 games. I will discount 2 because he played less than 15 minutes in each and did not score. So 22 games

With Messi - 14 games - 8 goals - 5 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 0.93
Without Messi - 8 games - 5 goals - 2 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 0.88

I'll only count La Liga to create a controlled comparison. Copa del Rey offers poor competition. Supercopa is a 2 tie event, and is a poor base point. UCL offers increased competition, and frankly, Alexis has been god awful in the UCL. Moreover, La Liga represents a more constant competition and has by far the biggest number of games to pull stats from.

So that clearly shows your statement that the wingers score more with Messi out of the team is patently false.
 
Last edited:

JamDav1982

Senior Member
In La Liga:

Alexis has played 21 games. I wont count today because he came in too late into that shambolic mess and did not score. So 20 games.

With Messi - 12 games - 9 goals - 3 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 1.00
Without Messi - 8 games - 6 goals - 2 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 1.00

Pedro has played 24 games. I will discount 2 because he played less than 15 minutes in each and did not score. So 22 games

With Messi - 14 games - 8 goals - 5 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 0.93
Without Messi - 8 games - 5 goals - 2 assists. Ratio of goal+assist = 0.88

I'll only count La Liga to create a controlled comparison. Copa del Rey offers poor competition. Supercopa is a 2 tie event, and is a poor base point. UCL offers increased competition, and frankly, Alexis has been god awful in the UCL. Moreover, La Liga represents a more constant competition and has by far the biggest number of games to pull stats from.

So that clearly shows your statement that the wingers score more with Messi out of the team is patently false.

Alexis has 7 assists in La Liga not 5.

Also why are you ignoring the CL?

Doesnt suit your argument?

Revise those stats I would say.
 

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
I agree. The best we've seen from Messi was when Villa and Pedro were very good by his side, and there was space. Or when Iniesta had his best season(12-13), assisting left and right.
The way things are now, I don't think the false 9 works anymore. Teams found a way to nulifiy it. Messi needs a 9 in front of him. He won't get space everytime.

But Flavia, are you essentially saying Messi's success depends on other players doing their part? That's one of the things that Messi's critics and haters have been saying all along, that he was only good because he was playing with the best players who were at their peak.
 

Luftstalag14

Culé de Celestial Empire
Its not changed since his comeback. I didn't watch the game today. I was out, but since his comeback he is not the same player and may never be again. (By which I mean the best player of all time 2011-2013)

He is still a fantastic player and when he switches it on he can just score, but I feel that everyone expecting him to be as good as he was is silly.

That was his career peak and while he is still the best in the world, you can never reach a 2nd peak. That in mind, its up to management or club to get the best out of him. Or drop him if need be.

I have to agree that he might have just peaked too early. It is likely that we might never see the old Messi we saw again.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Alexis has 7 assists in La Liga not 5.

Also why are you ignoring the CL?

Doesnt suit your argument?

Revise those stats I would say.

I missed one game, but I still show 6 assists in La Liga, not 7 per Whoscored.com. Still does not change the overall idea.

I already explained why I did not count UCL. Alexis has performed very poorly there, totally independent of the formation. He boasts a whopping zero goals and 1 assist in 6 games, and that assist came as a late sub.

However, even if I count the other competitions despite them not offering a controlled and stable statistical measure, your statement still remains false. The ratios might drop, but the amount of goals are still higher with Messi.

Edit: Foxsport also shows Alexis with 6 assists. Wikipedia is wrong. http://msn.foxsports.com/foxsoccer/laliga/stats?table=offensive&stat=assists
 
Last edited:

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I missed one game, but I still show 6 assists in La Liga, not 7 per Whoscored.com. Still does not change the overall idea.

I already explained why I did not count UCL. Alexis has performed very poorly there, totally independent of the formation. He boasts a whopping zero goals and 1 assist in 6 games, and that assist came as a late sub.

However, even if I count the other competitions despite them not offering a controlled and stable statistical measure, your statement still remains false. The ratios might drop, but the amount of goals are still higher with Messi.

Still need to include CL - 'Alexis performing poorly' is irrelevant.

The wide players show better stats without Messi in La Liga and CL no matter how much you try to offer them.
 

Vapor

New member
I must admit. I definitely do not BLAME Messi for the result tonight. And I haven't been one to hop aboard the notion that Messi has been playing "lazy" as of late.

Previous to tonight, I've always interpreted the walking and perceived "laziness" as just extreme economy of effort and efficiency. Even though he looks like he just strolls at times... he strolls when he knows he doesn't need to be running. He reads the game and adjusts accordingly. This way he conserves the maximum amount of energy and applies it explosively when he sees space or a move.

However.. today, it really did seem to me like he was not in the spaces he should have been when it was required. He seemed further from the play than usual, and didn't seem to make an effort to really expend 100 or even 90% effort in trying to make things happen.

I feel like he was vastly limited by the general level of the team as a whole, didn't get much help, and was one of our best players anyways... but I did feel like he could have ran a bit more and tried harder today.

Overall the team morale and mindset was just really poor. Can't really single Messi out... but I feel he does need to move more than today than for the betterment of the attack.
 
F

Flavia

Guest
But Flavia, are you essentially saying Messi's success depends on other players doing their part? That's one of the things that Messi's critics and haters have been saying all along, that he was only good because he was playing with the best players who were at their peak.

He's not 100% yet. Be it mentally for fear of gettin injured again and missing the wc. But in the past he had way more space. To create that space I don't think the false 9 works anymore. It's not working right now, anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Home of Barca Fans

Top