10 - Lionel Messi - v3

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serghei

Senior Member
Little exceptions? Bullshit. The entire 2012/2013 season was all Messi. 100 points in the League. And it is no coincedence that we got humiliated in the CL and started declining further at the same time he got injured.

Come on man, vs. Almeria and such? We were shit when we met a decent opponent in 2012-2013. Admit it.

Milan Barcelona 2-0. Before the injury. Messi was just as bad as the rest of the team was. The return leg, 4-0, we played better and Messi played awesome.

One of the few important games where Messi really carried us was the 2-0 on Bernabeu, in 2011. 2011 was his diamond year. And the 4-1 against Arsenal.
 
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DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Come on man, vs. Almeria and such? We were shit when we met a decent opponent in 2012-2013. Admit it.

Milan Barcelona 2-0. Before the injury. Messi was just as bad as the rest of the team was. The return leg, 4-0, we played better and Messi played awesome.

It's not really a good argument to say that Messi's good form correlates with the team doing well too. Do you expect him to perform amazingly in the big games against difficult defenses if the rest of the team is so shit?

That's no excuse for his lack of effort but to chastise Messi for not being a complete one man team in difficult CL games is unfair.
 

Paganinisrvnge

New member
Messi's "failures" are more down to teams being able to mark him into oblivion because they're not afraid of anyone else on the team. It started with Chelsea in 11/12 and has continued on. If Neymar continues to improve and really become a star then he'll attract more defenders. Right now there are a few different problems at Barcelona.

1. Age - Puyol hasn't played at a high level(barely even at all) since the last time we won the Champions League in 2010/11 and now he's leaving. There have been matches where Mascherano has played brilliantly and so far ahead of the level anyone expects but the sad truth is that he's simply not a true CB and every year I'm absolutely SHOCKED that we STILL don't sign a new CB. Meanwhile, Xavi remains a quality player and absolute Barcelona legend but he lacks two things that he used to have consistently in his prime. Willingness to try world class defense splitting passes and ability to hold his own in defense. Xavi is probably the biggest crutch to Tata's attempt at making Barcelona a multifaceted team in attack. I can't count the amount of times when he's had 2 or 3 of Messi, Pedro, Neymar, etc. making runs into space after gaining possession with a clear chance for a great counter and he slows plays down and passes sideways. He's seemingly obsessed with possession since Pep left and is completely delusional in his claims that we're always better because of meaningless possession(he said we were better against Bayern :lol: )

2. No strength/height/energy - In the last two times Barcelona have been eliminated in the Champions League; they've looked like old men passing the ball around who win only like 15% of all headers, get outrun by EVERYONE, and get pushed off the ball remarkably easily. This was never the case in the Pep era. Why? Well for one, everyone pressed maniacally and the team won the ball back within seconds. Everyone wants to blame Messi for walking(which is part of the problem in some matches but he presses when it's important like vs Man City) but also our midfield doesn't seem to press or care to press very much anymore. Even when Xavi was younger and didn't get embarrassed in defense by anyone with talent; Pep still used to play Seydou Keita in away matches in the Champions League to provide some extra steel in midfield. Now the team doesn't have anyone in that mold of Keita/Yaya and Song has been a failed experiment or perhaps not properly utilized. Cruyff just said it that we have no physical players anymore and that hurts the team greatly. This sport relies a lot of technical ability but it's still important to be in great physical shape and I feel our team lacks that.

3. Motivation - Atletico 100% deserved to win and in fact deserved to win by more than one goal at the Vicente Calderon. They wanted it WAY more than Barcelona. They won every loose ball, won almost every header, etc. My theory is that too many players at Barcelona have won everything there is to win so that while they may still have desire to win; some of that internal fire has been dimmed. Hopefully some new signings of players who have never won the Champions League will reinvigorate the squad.
 

CatalinR10

Senior Member
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Stric

New member
Come on man, vs. Almeria and such? We were shit when we met a decent opponent in 2012-2013. Admit it.

Milan Barcelona 2-0. Before the injury. Messi was just as bad as the rest of the team was. The return leg, 4-0, we played better and Messi played awesome.

One of the few important games where Messi really carried us was the 2-0 on Bernabeu, in 2011. 2011 was his diamond year.

Exactly. Messi's individual brilliance carried the team the entire season. He scored 46 league goals. Him alone and Madrid being inexplicably bad in the first part of the season won us the league.

Again, you answered yourself. Messi played brilliantly and scored 2 goals to get us back in the competition. If it weren't for him, we would have exited in the quarter finals.
 

serghei

Senior Member
It's not really a good argument to say that Messi's good form correlates with the team doing well too. Do you expect him to perform amazingly in the big games against difficult defenses if the rest of the team is so shit?

That's no excuse for his lack of effort but to chastise Messi for not being a complete one man team in difficult CL games is unfair.

No. I don't expect him to single-handedly win us games. That's precisely the point. He has declined like his teammates have and we should all expect less from him. But we -- the fans, the media and the board also -- act like he's better than ever. He isn't. He's playing worse.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
No. I don't expect him to single-handedly win us games. That's precisely the point. He has declined like his teammates have and we should all expect less from him. But we -- the fans, the media and the board also -- act like he's better than ever. He isn't. He's playing worse.

He could never single-handedly win us games even at his best. He could (and can) singlehandedly change games but that requires the support of a team that's giving at least a decent performance. He's performing worse now individually, but it's not a drop in ability as some would suggest. Lack of an authoritative coach, lack of a good system, and lack of his own motivation are bringing him down.
 

serghei

Senior Member
He could never single-handedly win us games even at his best. He could (and can) singlehandedly change games but that requires the support of a team that's giving at least a decent performance. He's performing worse now individually, but it's not a drop in ability as some would suggest. Lack of an authoritative coach, lack of a good system, and lack of his own motivation are bringing him down.

Exactly. We seem to agree.
 

Kerrybai

New member
His ability will not leave him until he retires, but his ambition has already dropped.

The ambition of the entire team has dropped, I believe Pep said he couldn't motivate the players anymore. The hunger for trophies begins to die after you win so much I guess. Maybe a new coach or some new players fighting for starts could get everyone going again.
 
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Flavia

Guest
Messi is too young to be declining. I don't get these type of statements. He has done well this year. One bad game is one bad game.

The team has declined, mostly because Xavi got old, and he was the system. and a makeshift cb is here since 2011. If the team was properly improved in these 3 years, a lot of the problems we see now wouldn't be happening. But we hear stuff like Tata has a squad rich in variables from Zubi, and somehow it's not the board's fault the team is the way it is now.
 

Alarcón

New member
He could never single-handedly win us games even at his best. He could (and can) singlehandedly change games but that requires the support of a team that's giving at least a decent performance. He's performing worse now individually, but it's not a drop in ability as some would suggest. Lack of an authoritative coach, lack of a good system, and lack of his own motivation are bringing him down.

Yes. Good post.
 
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