10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[Flavia]

For Barca, Messi, Xavi and Iniesta are the same in my book. The same. Messi individually is better of course, but it can also be argued that Xavi and Iniesta have some of the most complete careers I've seen in football, if we leave out individual awards. More complete than Messi, who didn't have the same success with his NT.

I really, really, really doubt Barça would had achieved the same success without Messi. Iniesta and Xavi would tell you the same. Maybe half of the leagues and cl won, not more than that, if all those at all.

 

[serghei]

I really, really, really doubt Barça would had achieved the same success without Messi. Iniesta's and Xavi would tell you the same. Maybe half of the leagues and cl won, not more than that, if all those at all.

Let's not play the would have game. For me, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi mean just as much.

 

[Vlom]

Xavi and Iniesta barely participated last season, yet we won the trebble with Messi winning best european player by a thousand miles... go figure.

 

[serghei]

Xavi and Iniesta barely participated last season, yet we won the trebble with Messi winning best european player by a thousand miles... go figure.

Messi barely participated in 2006 and we won the double, beating RM 3-0 on Bernabeu and winning the CL in Paris.

 

[Vlom]

lol, you're trolling mate

Keep at it, i'm out of this discussion.

 

[Flavia]

Let's not play the would have game. For me, Xavi, Iniesta and Messi mean just as much.

They don't. It's not really would have, it's pretty obvious. If Messi was a rm or bayern player, that would be the team that would dominate the most, it surely wouldn't be Barça.
For starters, there would be not even one treble, let alone two.

 

[serghei]

They don't. It's not really would have, it's pretty obvious. If Messi was a rm or bayern player, that would be the team that would dominate the most, it surely wouldn't be Barça.
For starters, there would be not even one treble, let alone two.

It's just a preferrence. As for your obvious argument, Barcelona with Messi as a main starter have won 3/8 Champions Leagues. So, teams that don't have Messi have won the CL 5/8 times since Messi is a world superstar. No reason why Barca without Messi couldn't have won... say... 2 of those CL titles.

 

[Flavia]

It's just a preferrence. As for your obvious argument, Barcelona with Messi as a main starter have won 3/8 Champions Leagues. So, teams that don't have Messi have won the CL 5/8 times since Messi is a world superstar. No reason why Barca without Messi couldn't have won... say... 2 of those CL titles.

Teams. Not the same team. No other team won it 2x recently. And Messi would be in another team, which would mean that would be the team winning most of everything. It's funny to see you underestimating Messi's influence, while you overrate players like Alexis. It really is something.

 

[Sumlit]

Oh Serghei, you and your weird arguments.

This is your same argument of a few months ago where you insisted Messi was just icing on the cake, taking Barca from close winners, to sure winners, but without him they'd be winners nonetheless.

Just like then, you are incorrect now.

 

[Icarium]

If we didn't have messi and had someone decent we would have won 3/4th trophies we won is my belief. But if some other team like real madrid had messi we would perform like real Madrid of last decade. 1 CL and couple of leagues at max.

 

[serghei]

Teams. Not the same team. And Messi would be in another team, which would mean that would be the team winning most of everything. It's funny to see you underestimating Messi's influence, while you overrate players like Alexis. It really is something.

1. I don't overrate players like Alexis. I've said Neymar is a better LW. Ronaldo as well. Overrating Alexis would mean saying he's the best LW in the world. Not the case.

2. Teams, true, you're right about that. But teams that are weaker than Barcelona without Messi, except for Bayern 2013 and Real Madrid 2014. Underesting Messi's influence? Not true imo. Messi was the best player in a team filled with players that were either the best in their positions or top 3 there. The team we had was amazing, and Messi was a part of that, the most important part, but JUST a part.

And why should we say if Messi played for Bayern or Real Madrid? Chances are that if Barcelona didn't buy him since he was a child and took care of that growth hormone thing, he wouldn't have become who he is today.

 

[vlad]

messi is playing the best football of his career, the most complete player ever.

 

[serghei]

Oh Serghei, you and your weird arguments.

This is your same argument of a few months ago where you insisted Messi was just icing on the cake, taking Barca from close winners, to sure winners, but without him they'd be winners nonetheless.

Just like then, you are incorrect now.

In your opinion that is. While I did take it to the extreme that time, it is my opinion and I won't let it go. And it can't be incorrect because it is based on speculations and what ifs, just as your opinion is.

 

[Flavia]

1. I don't overrate players like Alexis. I've said Neymar is a better LW. Ronaldo as well. Overrating Alexis would mean saying he's the best LW in the world. Not the case.

2. Teams, true, you're right about that. But teams that are weaker than Barcelona without Messi, except for Bayern 2013 and Real Madrid 2014. Underesting Messi's influence? Not true imo. Messi was the best player in a team filled with players that were either the best in their positions or top 3 there. The team we had was amazing, and Messi was a part of that, the most important part, but JUST a part.

just a part?
nope, a vital part. You're really deluded if you believe Barça would have half of the success we had in the past 11 years without him. Who would score our goals? Villa, ibra, Pedro? Alexis? Who would score 73 goals in a league, being the main reason for it to be won? Or being the main factor in 2 cl finals, and many semi finals, like against rm and bayern? Just to name a few of what Messi has done.

Neymar wouldn't had come here either. We'd be something like rm is now. With a lot of great midfielders, maybe some great attackers, but not many titles to show for it. Pretty much what Barça used to be, before Messi.

I guess some will only realize how difference he makes once he retires, sadly. Or it wont matter, theres always a bayern arsenal match to watch

 

[serghei]

just a part?
nope, a vital part. You're really deluded if you believe Barça would have half of the success we had in the past 11 years without him. Who would score our goals? Villa, ibra, Pedro? Alexis? Who would score 73 goals in a league, being the main reason for it to be won? Or being the main factor in 2 cl finals, and many semi finals, like against rm and bayern?

Neymar wouldn't had come here either. We'd be something like rm is now. With a lot of great midfielders, maybe some great attackers, but not many titles to show for it. Pretty much what Barça used to be, before Messi.

A __________ part. Fill in your desired word. Vital, huge, large etc. But a part. Football is a team sport. Players don't win games on their own. The team does. It is impossible to say what would have happened in the absence of a player. Everything changes without Messi, but great teams adapt. Barcelona would have adapted without Messi and would have won many trophies. Maybe not as many, that was a stretch from me, but a lot of them.