10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[JamDav1982]

No. I never said he was sole reason we won treble last year, you are making stuff up. What I did say was that he has singlehandedly won us semi finals against Bayern and he has led our team to treble last year. That is a fact, not opinion. You can go lengths to try to explain how everyone has done their part, but fact is he was comfortably our best player last season, when we have won everything. When no one could score against 2nd best team in the world, he has scored 2 amazing goals.

Fact is he has scored disproportionate amount of goals in hard games this year (2016) when we were down. I wrote them, Malaga, Celta, Espanyol and Atletico. All games we looked clueless and looked like we could struggle to win and he scored in every one of them, everytime when we were down. You are using this bad form to say we play better then Messi, but didn't say shit when we played great and Messi played great.

You used Neymar and Suarez (to lesser extent) form to create an argument where they are better when Messi is not around. But you failed to mention they have played shit ton of games 2 times a week ever since.

I never mentioned treble...

You said without Messi Barca wouldnt have been in the final. This is true of many players.

Never argued he didnt lead the team or was the best player last season or indeed this season when fit.

Now you have changed scoring in EVERY important game to most of them which is more accurate.

Have never said Barca play better without Messi said there is more to this team winning games than just him and indeed most ipressive performance of season 4-0 away to Real happened without him for majority of game.

I never mentioned Neymar and Suarez without Messi. More lies.

 

[vlad]

this is going to far, messi cant play every season like last one, but still he had 1 bad season in his career for his standards and that was under tata martino when barca won nothing, maybe messi look sometimes like he does not have motivation or something, but barca is here on top because of him. He probably has some problems, because he looked good to me 1 month before.

 

[El Flaco]

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[blaugrana1987]

I never mentioned treble...

You said without Messi Barca wouldnt have been in the final. This is true of many players.

Never argued he didnt lead the team or was the best player last season or indeed this season when fit.

Now you have changed scoring in EVERY important game to most of them which is more accurate.

Have never said Barca play better without Messi said there is more to this team winning games than just him and indeed most ipressive performance of season 4-0 away to Real happened without him for majority of game.

I never mentioned Neymar and Suarez without Messi. More lies.

We got into finals because Messi has (unlike any player last year) completely, signlehandendly won the game against toughest opponent possible. He was our best player against City and amazing against PSG (although Suarez was IMO best here). But both of those games were never on the line, as a team we dominated them both. Bayern was though, Suarez and Neymar couldn't do much. Messi turned game upside down in last 20 minutes. As a team, we dismantled most of opposition last year mostly because MSN played fantastic, but in CL margins are small, and Messi was only player to do what he did against Bayern. He won us a tie, weather you like it or not.

I never said every. Please quote me the post where I said every.

No you said Barca played best without Messi. You also mentioned players playing their best without Messi. Its only left to assume Barca without Messi is better, no two ways about it. And that is what you implied.

Yes and their best performance came against Madrid that (maybe even purposely) played like they couldn't give a shit. Just look at their tactics that day, it was bound to happen for us to **** them. Not to take anything from the team that day, they stepped up and stepped up beautifully.

You are also mentioning game that we played when we were in absolute best shape of the season. Fresh, not alot of games we just run other teams to the ground. We pressed and passed much quicker then we have in last month. That means comparison just doesn't work. Two completely different teams (Oct-March and this one).

Sorry, you didn't specifically mention them but we all know who you think stepped up when Messi wasn't there (attack obviously). Yea, both of them played better then they play now. They also pressed better, ran more and generally looked much more lively back then. 3 months of games twice a week probably have nothing to do with the dip in their form, maybe its Messi.

 

[JamDav1982]

We got into finals because Messi has (unlike any player last year) completely, signlehandendly won the game against toughest opponent possible. He was our best player against City and amazing against PSG (although Suarez was IMO best here). But both of those games were never on the line, as a team we dominated them both. Bayern was though, Suarez and Neymar couldn't do much. Messi turned game upside down in last 20 minutes. As a team, we dismantled most of opposition last year mostly because MSN played fantastic, but in CL margins are small, and Messi was only player to do what he did against Bayern. He won us a tie, weather you like it or not.

I never said every. Please quote me the post where I said every.

No you said Barca played best without Messi. You also mentioned players playing their best without Messi. Its only left to assume Barca without Messi is better, no two ways about it. And that is what you implied.

Yes and their best performance came against Madrid that (maybe even purposely) played like they couldn't give a shit. Just look at their tactics that day, it was bound to happen for us to **** them. Not to take anything from the team that day, they stepped up and stepped up beautifully.

You are also mentioning game that we played when we were in absolute best shape of the season. Fresh, not alot of games we just run other teams to the ground. We pressed and passed much quicker then we have in last month. That means comparison just doesn't work. Two completely different teams (Oct-March and this one).

Sorry, you didn't specifically mention them but we all know who you think stepped up when Messi wasn't there (attack obviously). Yea, both of them played better then they play now. They also pressed better, ran more and generally looked much more lively back then. 3 months of games twice a week probably have nothing to do with the dip in their form, maybe its Messi.

No you are wrong. There are games before the Bayern game that took Barca to that point of getting to the final and even in that game he scored two other players played a part. This 'single handed' idea is a lazy cliche that is not possible.

Other games were just as important. If a player steps up in last twenty or any point in 90 mins it doesnt matter. By your logic a player that has a blinder early and puts game to bed is less effective than player that does it in last 20 mins.

You did mention every game. Go back and read it.

Never said Barca played best or better without Messi said SOME of best performances this season have been without him in the team. Again go back and read it.

Nope never mentioned Suarez or Ney without Messi. You are lying again and to mention 'what we all know' doesnt make it true.

The point of metioning games without Messi is to show how much more there is to the team that you totally ignore but in your warped world it is me saying the team is better off without him and he is not the best player.

I will make this clear to you..... Messi is Barcas best player and team is better with him in it.

 

[Jamie Cal]

I don't think it was necessarily about Neymar and Suarez stepping up -- we played different all round when Messi's not there. Don't forget Busi's evolution this year where we were saying not only is he the best DM in the world but CM too, filling Xavi's boots. And Roberto's evolution, being crucial in the first clasico when his break from midfield made the difference when the game was still in the balance.

We've definitely had different heroes at different points, but if you wanna get into it then Neymar is the first player ever to score in every round from the QF onwards, and Suarez has 2 winning goals against Madrid in a year, a winner against Atleti, a winner in the CL final, and a winner in the World Club Championship too. The Neymar without Messi has been objectively different both stylistically and in terms of form.

 

[blaugrana1987]

No you are wrong. There are games before the Bayern game that took Barca to that point of getting to the final and even in that game he scored two other players played a part. This 'single handed' idea is a lazy cliche that is not possible.

Other games were just as important. If a player steps up in last twenty or any point in 90 mins it doesnt matter. By your logic a player that has a blinder early and puts game to bed is less effective than player that does it in last 20 mins.

You did mention every game. Go back and read it.

Never said Barca played best or better without Messi said SOME of best performances this season have been without him in the team. Again go back and read it.

Nope never mentioned Suarez or Ney without Messi. You are lying again and to mention 'what we all know' doesnt make it true.

The point of metioning games without Messi is to show how much more there is to the team that you totally ignore but in your warped world it is me saying the team is better off without him and he is not the best player.

I will make this clear to you..... Messi is Barcas best player and team is better with him in it.

Alves gave good pass to Messi and then Messi whips it from 20m past Neuer. Rakitic plays simple pass to Messi who puts Boateng on his back and chips Neuer. That is as singlehandedly as it gets in football.

Again, what games before? We, as a team, never looked remotely threatened against any other team in CL before semis. That is true. I'm not denying every player contribute their max, and I'm thankful for that, but we have beaten City and PSG (as a team) without much fuss. Things weren't going our way against Bayern until Messi buried the game.

You didn't mention Neymar and Suarez explicitly, but N and S were the two players that stepped up as everyone that follows barca know. You surely didn't mean some players that stepped up when Messi wasn't here were Pique and Alba.

I'm not ignoring team. Fuck sake I'm one of few that completely understands this fall we are having. I have no problems with that. Yes I'm disappointing, but this team gave so much in last year and a half and I don't fault them at all. I knew amount of games they played will catch up with them, its natural, in the end I only want them to win La Liga and Copa. This came almost as a relief because clearly this team is no longer clicking like it has and continuing in CL would be big burden IMO. But that also means that people attacking a player that (alongside Ronaldinho) transformed big underachieving club into best club of 21st century when everyone literally plays like shit is unacceptable.

In any case I'm going to bed...This shit sucks and nothings gonna change the fact that we blew good portion of season in last 3 weeks. Genuinely didn't look like ourselves. Hopefully team picks up against Valencia and takes the league and Copa, that in itself would be huge success. Players had good and bad parts of season, unlucky for us that most of ours had it in the end.

 

[blaugrana1987]

I don't think it was necessarily about Neymar and Suarez stepping up -- we played different all round when Messi's not there. Don't forget Busi's evolution this year where we were saying not only is he the best DM in the world but CM too, filling Xavi's boots. And Roberto's evolution, being crucial in the first clasico when his break from midfield made the difference when the game was still in the balance.

We've definitely had different heroes at different points, but if you wanna get into it then Neymar is the first player ever to score in every round from the QF onwards, and Suarez has 2 winning goals against Madrid in a year, a winner against Atleti, a winner in the CL final, and a winner in the World Club Championship too. The Neymar without Messi has been objectively different both stylistically and in terms of form.

You are right about that actually. And in no way I'm saying this team or players are not important for a wins we had last year.

But point on Sergio...He played fantastically with or without Messi for last few months but his form has declined lately. He had his best day against Madrid, that was spectacular but that form (and teams form) in November doesn't mean they would play like that till end. Thats all I'm saying. We have proven this team is good enough to win everything like last year, and same team played amazingly for last 5 months. Its hard to believe its the same team, but it is. Forms drop, ours dropped in worst time (collectively and individually) and everyone deserves criticism for it. Messi the most since he is the one who should be stepping up but didn't.

Still, we play for two trophies. In good position in both of them, no other games in CL and we can concentrate on that. We have lost CL with Pep as well, taking double would be amazing and if we do it we are going to forget about this dip in form once summer hits. If only Real could actually get someone that is not City in semis and just crash out for a good measure...

 

[Jamie Cal]

You are right about that actually. And in no way I'm saying this team or players are not important for a wins we had last year.

But point on Sergio...He played fantastically with or without Messi for last few months but his form has declined lately. He had his best day against Madrid, that was spectacular but that form (and teams form) in November doesn't mean they would play like that till end. Thats all I'm saying. We have proven this team is good enough to win everything like last year, and same team played amazingly for last 5 months. Its hard to believe its the same team, but it is. Forms drop, ours dropped in worst time (collectively and individually) and everyone deserves criticism for it. Messi the most since he is the one who should be stepping up but didn't.

Still, we play for two trophies. In good position in both of them, no other games in CL and we can concentrate on that. We have lost CL with Pep as well, taking double would be amazing and if we do it we are going to forget about this dip in form once summer hits. If only Real could actually get someone that is not City in semis and just crash out for a good measure...

Yeah I agree. I've only been skimming you and JamDav's chat so I'm not sure where the argument is.

It's our fitness has failed us in my eyes, clear as day. So much of the team revolves on what Messi's doing that when we're expecting him to take on certain roles/positions and not doing it, it kills our balance, which is/was the one thing we had over others.

 

[JamDav1982]

Alves gave good pass to Messi and then Messi whips it from 20m past Neuer. Rakitic plays simple pass to Messi who puts Boateng on his back and chips Neuer. That is as singlehandedly as it gets in football.

Again, what games before? We, as a team, never looked remotely threatened against any other team in CL before semis. That is true. I'm not denying every player contribute their max, and I'm thankful for that, but we have beaten City and PSG (as a team) without much fuss. Things weren't going our way against Bayern until Messi buried the game.

You didn't mention Neymar and Suarez explicitly, but N and S were the two players that stepped up as everyone that follows barca know. You surely didn't mean some players that stepped up when Messi wasn't here were Pique and Alba.

I'm not ignoring team. Fuck sake I'm one of few that completely understands this fall we are having. I have no problems with that. Yes I'm disappointing, but this team gave so much in last year and a half and I don't fault them at all. I knew amount of games they played will catch up with them, its natural, in the end I only want them to win La Liga and Copa. This came almost as a relief because clearly this team is no longer clicking like it has and continuing in CL would be big burden IMO. But that also means that people attacking a player that (alongside Ronaldinho) transformed big underachieving club into best club of 21st century when everyone literally plays like shit is unacceptable.

In any case I'm going to bed...This shit sucks and nothings gonna change the fact that we blew good portion of season in last 3 weeks. Genuinely didn't look like ourselves. Hopefully team picks up against Valencia and takes the league and Copa, that in itself would be huge success. Players had good and bad parts of season, unlucky for us that most of ours had it in the end.

Other ties never looked in doubt as players stepped up early. All of Messi, Suarez and Ney played huge part in that. The whole team did really.

If you think Messi can win anything single handed then go and look at him for Argentina. He cant and no one can.

I never mentioned Ney or Suarez as I wasnt referring to anything but the team and I never mentioned any players 'stepping up'.

 

[blaugrana1987]

Yeah I agree. I've only been skimming you and JamDav's chat so I'm not sure where the argument is.

It's our fitness has failed us in my eyes, clear as day. So much of the team revolves on what Messi's doing that when we're expecting him to take on certain roles/positions and not doing it, it kills our balance, which is/was the one thing we had over others.

Our argument is my bad. In my after match rage I though he implied we play better without Messi and all things went to shitter...

That is absolutely main reason, no doubt. We played so many games this year its kinda crazy, two games a week pretty much for 2.5 months straight. Thing is, Euros and Copa are this year as well and everything is pushed a bit ahead so CL knockout stages are earlier as well. If only we completely rested team against Real and Sociedad. Maybe play against Sociedad for a draw and whatever happens. In the end we risked and not only we lost both matches, we spent ourselves even more. In hindsight maybe losing these two games and resting a team would be better since we lost them with our first 11 anyway.

 

[Jamie Cal]

Our argument is my bad. In my after match rage I though he implied we play better without Messi and all things went to shitter...

That is absolutely main reason, no doubt. We played so many games this year its kinda crazy, two games a week pretty much for 2.5 months straight. Thing is, Euros and Copa are this year as well and everything is pushed a bit ahead so CL knockout stages are earlier as well. If only we completely rested team against Real and Sociedad. Maybe play against Sociedad for a draw and whatever happens. In the end we risked and not only we lost both matches, we spent ourselves even more. In hindsight maybe losing these two games and resting a team would be better since we lost them with our first 11 anyway.

You can make a case for it but in hindsight I would say we were pretty spent physically by that point and the mindset of 'we'll lose and turn it on next match' is a bad one to get into anyway. The resting should of been throughout the year. 'Can't fatten the pig the day of the fare' as they say.

Plus we did rest quite a few for the Sociedad game, especially with subs.

 

[blaugrana1987]

You can make a case for it but in hindsight I would say we were pretty spent physically by that point and the mindset of 'we'll lose and turn it on next match' is a bad one to get into anyway. The resting should of been throughout the year. 'Can't fatten the pig the day of the fare' as they say.

Plus we did rest quite a few for the Sociedad game, especially with subs.

You are right on that. Once fatigue is visible on TV screen, its too late for it. Players need few weeks time of rest and then few games again to get back on track. We are spent, but I think with no more games in CL we still have a bit more time between games to at least find some strength to get to the end. At least matches are not too difficult.

 

[Jamie Cal]

You are right on that. Once fatigue is visible on TV screen, its too late for it. Players need few weeks time of rest and then few games again to get back on track. We are spent, but I think with no more games in CL we still have a bit more time between games to at least find some strength to get to the end. At least matches are not too difficult.

That's one of the worst bits; our run in from here on out is quite easy. Had we got over Atleti tonight than we could rotate a lot more (though we probably wouldn't have) as the only tricky game is Valencia, and even they're a mess. That said, dropping all those points recently to make it 3-point lead would mean we'd have to be on guard in the Liga against the lesser teams, and, again, we just don't have the depth to be like that.

 

[blaugrana1987]

That's one of the worst bits; our run in from here on out is quite easy. Had we got over Atleti tonight than we could rotate a lot more (though we probably wouldn't have) as the only tricky game is Valencia, and even they're a mess. That said, dropping all those points recently to make it 3-point lead would mean we'd have to be on guard in the Liga against the lesser teams, and, again, we just don't have the depth to be like that.

Tbh if we passed Atletico we would have gotten Bayern probably. Watch Real getting Wolfsburg. I don't think in this physical state and fitness this team has atm we would beat Bayern. Maybe 2 months ago, yea, but not now. No amount of rotation in last month of season will be enough to "repay" the debt that has accumulated in last half a year.

Its not all on Lucho tbh. We didn't have the money to buy Nolito, and our bench is horrible. If we win double that would mean we have won 5 out of 6 main titles in last two years. And we had transfer ban on our hands as well, not to shabby.