Blaugranaa
New member
He scored on penalties agasint Netherland. I know it's a shootout but a goal is a goal.
10 - Lionel Messi - v5
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
El Gato
Villarato!
Quote one line where I cited anything as fact in that post. Hypotheses aren't facts matey.
tacticvarium
New member
serghei
Senior Member
I think Messi got too much credit for the dream team in the Pep's days, in the sense that people started in time to attribute some things to him that were, in a bigger proportion, actually the work of our other players, most notably Xavi, Iniesta and Dani Alves. This is mostly valid in build up aspects of the game. Messi was almost always part of a triangle with these players. A lot of actions that went through Messi also had Xavi and Alves in the passing chain. And this is sort of what's been neglected in time by many fans.
Messi was never the no1 player in build up in Pep's Barcelona. He was a forward and that's where he made his mark. The midfield combinations where made more in the absence of Messi than with Messi in the mix. That's where the trio was at its best.
Messi was a difference maker for Barcelona in the final third basically. He now is played an awful lot of times in positions that Xavi played in for Barcelona. It's hilariously bad logic and bad thinking. I find that shocking, that real professional managers would put a 7-8km per game player to cover a huge amount of ground, almost ranging from the center circle to the area around the box. Messi could never do the work Xavi did. Absolutely not in a million years. Xavi was a 11-12km per game player who missed 1-2 passes per 90mins in games where he did more than 100 passes. The amount of access Xavi gained through his work off the ball is probably unique in history. I doubt there's another player in top football who did more passes in his career than Xavi did. The man was always in position to help a team mate. It's completely the opposite of Messi's movement. Messi hides behind players, Xavi was almost impossible to cover shadow. Everytime somebody tried to place himself between the ball and Xavi, Xavi was gone from that place and receiving somewhere else, making that player look like a clown.
When playing in midfield at the highest level, the amount of work you need to do in order to be open for a pass is crucial. The difference between Messi and Xavi in movement and midfield play, is that of Messi and Xavi near the 16m box. In midfield access on the ball is more important than dribbling and penetration. It's more important to do 60 passes great, than to do 4 brilliantly. Midfield is a harrowing job. You have to get access to a lot of balls, and you have to use that access to advance the play. There's no place for laziness there. You can get away with low workrate everywhere. Except in midfield.
This stupid idea that Messi is a complete player who is a playmaker just as much as a goalscorer needs to stop. It is not true. Messi is far far from being a midfielder, in any form, either AM or CM. Maybe he could've been a no 10 when rigid italian football ruled the world, back in the 90's when teams weren't as focused to block the access to a player, more than they were focused on blocking the passing options of that player after he is allowed access (Messi kills you if you let him play and then try to block him). To be a world class playmaker now you need 2 things. 1) the hard work and effort off the ball to get into positions where you can be decisive, and 2) skill and talent to actually make the difference. One without the other will never be enough at this level. And more and more teams put everything into stopping you before you get on the ball. Which is how average defenders like Kolarov, Fazio and Jesus can block Messi out from a game completely. It's all tactical. If you do some tactical things right, you can exploit Messi's weaknesses while playing deep and denying him access. Do that well enough, and maybe he has 2-3 chances a game where you have to block him in a dangerous position.
Messi was never the no1 player in build up in Pep's Barcelona. He was a forward and that's where he made his mark. The midfield combinations where made more in the absence of Messi than with Messi in the mix. That's where the trio was at its best.
Messi was a difference maker for Barcelona in the final third basically. He now is played an awful lot of times in positions that Xavi played in for Barcelona. It's hilariously bad logic and bad thinking. I find that shocking, that real professional managers would put a 7-8km per game player to cover a huge amount of ground, almost ranging from the center circle to the area around the box. Messi could never do the work Xavi did. Absolutely not in a million years. Xavi was a 11-12km per game player who missed 1-2 passes per 90mins in games where he did more than 100 passes. The amount of access Xavi gained through his work off the ball is probably unique in history. I doubt there's another player in top football who did more passes in his career than Xavi did. The man was always in position to help a team mate. It's completely the opposite of Messi's movement. Messi hides behind players, Xavi was almost impossible to cover shadow. Everytime somebody tried to place himself between the ball and Xavi, Xavi was gone from that place and receiving somewhere else, making that player look like a clown.
When playing in midfield at the highest level, the amount of work you need to do in order to be open for a pass is crucial. The difference between Messi and Xavi in movement and midfield play, is that of Messi and Xavi near the 16m box. In midfield access on the ball is more important than dribbling and penetration. It's more important to do 60 passes great, than to do 4 brilliantly. Midfield is a harrowing job. You have to get access to a lot of balls, and you have to use that access to advance the play. There's no place for laziness there. You can get away with low workrate everywhere. Except in midfield.
This stupid idea that Messi is a complete player who is a playmaker just as much as a goalscorer needs to stop. It is not true. Messi is far far from being a midfielder, in any form, either AM or CM. Maybe he could've been a no 10 when rigid italian football ruled the world, back in the 90's when teams weren't as focused to block the access to a player, more than they were focused on blocking the passing options of that player after he is allowed access (Messi kills you if you let him play and then try to block him). To be a world class playmaker now you need 2 things. 1) the hard work and effort off the ball to get into positions where you can be decisive, and 2) skill and talent to actually make the difference. One without the other will never be enough at this level. And more and more teams put everything into stopping you before you get on the ball. Which is how average defenders like Kolarov, Fazio and Jesus can block Messi out from a game completely. It's all tactical. If you do some tactical things right, you can exploit Messi's weaknesses while playing deep and denying him access. Do that well enough, and maybe he has 2-3 chances a game where you have to block him in a dangerous position.
Last edited:
fergus90
Senior Member
How anyone things Messi picks the team is beyond me. He's very placid and quiet that much is obvious and in fact those traits don't make him the best choice for captain in my opinion. If anything it's the fact he probably doesn't speak up that there's so much shite still being selected for the national team.
Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
Yet you peddled them as facts to make your argument that Messi orchestrated their downfall.
you just had to go and jinx it didn't you
in all seriousness, he'll probably turn up tonight
Probably? We all on here know Ronaldo is turning up tonight. No way is he going out with a whimper.
fergus90
Senior Member
I agree, Messi does have an incredible passing ability but no where near busy enough off the ball to be in the midfield areas. We have been crying out for top quality midfielders since the end of 15/16.
Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
Serghei, not that I disagree with everything you said but why do you always come out with this sort of revisionist stuff to paint Messi’s legacy in a very bad light after a bad performance by Messi? It is getting tiresome.
blaugrana1987
New member
What would Dybala do in this team? Have some of you watched the game? They conceded 4 goals, but could have easily conceded 6. Its not attack they should worry about, its defense. They tried to clutter MF with more bodies to have a chance against younger, more talented and faster France, but with decent coach on France side, it would be a blowout.
Stoichkov1
New member
Well Messi ofc isn't a midfielder, he's a second striker or a number 10 and his main task is to be effective in the final third, not to control the tempo like Xavi.
The problem is that Messi doesn't get the ball in dangerous positions in the final third because 1)The midfield isn't good enough 2)Messi's lack of movement without the ball is shocking and he doesn't make himself available for passes from his teammates.
You also have to consider that from 2009 to 2013 Messi played in a much better team and he was himself a much better player. He ran more and made more sprints, looked way more energetic and was better on the ball because of his acceleration which he lost. Prime Messi would have dribbled easily against Kante.
El Gato
Villarato!
He hadn't orchestrated nothing... I'll paraphrase then.
It's basically showing you how bad decisions of AFA and Messi have led to these problems. Messi isn't directly "to blame" for it really, but he hasn't adjusted to his position as captain and the GOAT. He doesn't want the limelight. I mean we all see it, right? He is the type of guy who'd be keen to go to Newell's and live out his career in his peace if he could. But he DOES want to win the WC and he DOES want to do it with Argentina whose leadership is hopeless. So he took on the responsibility despite not being fit for it.
Even tactics-wise, he is trying to damage control and it backfired. This WC 3 out of 4 games he played rather badly in, even putting aside Argies being crap and playing under a coach who requires the attackers to work a lot. Whenever he had the ball, he wasn't there as somebody to carry them. It showed.
Last edited:
Did u see Meza, Pavon, Perez?? Combined effort of ZERO. Not a pass. Not a shot. Nothing from them combined.
Dybala is a top player than can produce something out of nothing. And would've gave the opposition defence something more to worry about and maybe even freed up Messi a little bit
Home of Barca Fans
