10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[xxxxxx]

And now Messi is a choker. I'm done with this forum.

 

[DonAndres]

Jesus Christ this thread.

Do you guys understand the significance of having different roles??

Messi today had no support from the midfield at all. He needs to be able to receive it to start something, which Iniesta and Raki couldn't do. Iniesta literally completed 8 passes in the entire first half. Leo definitely was moving off ball a decent amount today, almost as much as the Chelsea game.

The difference between RM feeding Ronaldo and Barca feeding Messi is huge.



OPTA defines a progressive pass/run as one that moves at least 10 meters forward or into the opponent box. RM has 4 players on this list, 3 of the top 5, none of which are Ronaldo and all of whom service Ronaldo as much as possible. Barca only has 2, including Messi himself (and there's a limit to how much he can create a chance for himself with a passing play, only Messi ever does it regularly).

OPTA also says that a successful progressive pass/run DOUBLES the likelihood of a team scoring a goal in the next 7 seconds, to give a direct relation to how it affects scoring. So Messi, almost alone, is responsible for a huge bulk of our attacking effectiveness. Whereas RM have the absurdly superior chance creators on their team to produce it for Ronaldo. The more you examine the stats closely the more clear it becomes how much Messi has to carry Barca vs how much RM carries Ronaldo.

Think about it, Ronaldo is given every tool he could possibly ever ask for to succeed. He is at his "best" in terms of CL production during the years which he's declined the hardest and has practically nothing to his game outside of scoring. All because he can safely rely on his teammates to deliver him >7 point blank shots inside the box per game.

There's a reason why, aside from Messi, guys like Neymar/Hazard also have "bad performances" in which they seem to struggle to influence the game and can't make up for it with basic end product. The burden on their shoulders is just so much greater and they can't mask a poor/difficult performance with a goal because they ARE the engine of the team rather than being confident that others can do it for them.

 

[serghei]

federer looked terrible between age 30-35 before making a miracle comeback last 1-2 years. basically was a free win for djokovic for a while.

let's hope messi gets it together.

Doubt it. Don't see the same drive in Messi.
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION], this excuse doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[ebc_99]

The difference between Ronaldo and Messi is that CR7 has much more determination than Messi and never gives up. When the times are tough like they were today, Messi just walks around and accepts it while CR7 will try his best to try and turn the situation around. I never thought Messi was the best ever, I still believe that is Maradona but that is another whole discussion. We have to accept it, Ronaldo is now better than Messi if we are being completely honest. I mean, Ronaldo is about to win THREE CL's in a row for crying out loud! that is insane. Ronaldo being 4-1 down in BO's and now he is going to surpass him tells the story. Ronaldo has improved his game while Messi has dropped a couple of levels and that has enabled him to likely overtake him in BO. Ronaldo cannot touch Messi 2008-2013 (2015 was great but still not on the level of those years). Messi he has never really been the same player since the 2013 injury against PSG.

Also, Messi has the reputation of being a choker in recent years and I can't deny that. He skied his penalty in the Copa America final shootout and his CL KO stage performances have been abysmal.

That's a load of rubbish, if Ronaldo is better why are Real 15pts behind in la Liga. Messi does it week in week out, Ronaldo doesn't, were was he in El Classico when Real needed to win? Nowhere, you can't perform for half a season and be the best. And for a Barca fan to say Ronaldo is better, come on. Do you even watch football?

 

[Stoichkov1]

Jesus Christ this thread.

Do you guys understand the significance of having different roles??

Messi today had no support from the midfield at all. He needs to be able to receive it to start something, which Iniesta and Raki couldn't do. Iniesta literally completed 8 passes in the entire first half. Leo definitely was moving off ball a decent amount today, almost as much as the Chelsea game.

The difference between RM feeding Ronaldo and Barca feeding Messi is huge.

View attachment 7773

OPTA defines a progressive pass/run as one that moves at least 10 meters forward or into the opponent box. RM has 4 players on this list, 3 of the top 5, none of which are Ronaldo and all of whom service Ronaldo as much as possible. Barca only has 2, including Messi himself (and there's a limit to how much he can create a chance for himself with a passing play, only Messi ever does it regularly).

OPTA also says that a successful progressive pass/run DOUBLES the likelihood of a team scoring a goal in the next 7 seconds, to give a direct relation to how it affects scoring. So Messi, almost alone, is responsible for a huge bulk of our attacking effectiveness. Whereas RM have the absurdly superior chance creators on their team to produce it for Ronaldo. The more you examine the stats closely the more clear it becomes how much Messi has to carry Barca vs how much RM carries Ronaldo.

Think about it, Ronaldo is given every tool he could possibly ever ask for to succeed. He is at his "best" in terms of CL production during the years which he's declined the hardest and has practically nothing to his game outside of scoring. All because he can safely rely on his teammates to deliver him >7 point blank shots inside the box per game.

There's a reason why, aside from Messi, guys like Neymar/Hazard also have "bad performances" in which they seem to struggle to influence the game and can't make up for it with basic end product. The burden on their shoulders is just so much greater and they can't mask a poor/difficult performance with a goal because they ARE the engine of the team rather than being confident that others can do it for them.

The problem with Messi is that his off the ball movement is non existent and he doesn't have enough stamina.

 

[footyfan]

Before the pass comes the move, as Xavi once said. If Messi played for Madrid instead of Ronaldo they'd lose and people would blame rubbish Benzema scoring 5 goals all year and turtle Kroos making only sideway passes. If you actually watch Madrid they create "easy" chances through spamming crosses. Ronaldo lives off aerial balls, being at the right place at the right time for second balls and being quick on counter attacks. Messi doesn't have that scoring versatility, creating chances for Messi is a lot harder.

Well said. It's quite difficult to create chances for Messi as he's not as versatile as CR and also far less hungry and he also appears more lazy. He runs less than CR even though CR is a couple of years older. This is a credit to CR and definitely shows up in how he obliterates Messi in CL over the past few years. I mean, he scores over and over again against the very best teams (even though the same team supposedly fails to create chances for any of the other players) - meanwhile Messi has been chickenshit in every CL knockout game over the past 3 years other than Chelsea and one Arsenal game. He's simply not good enough to get away with walking all the time in the CL.

 

[FiReFTW]

federer looked terrible between age 30-35 before making a miracle comeback last 1-2 years. basically was a free win for djokovic for a while.

let's hope messi gets it together.

Fed looked terrible you say?

Federer at the age of 30 won Wimbledon and was number 1 at one point.
At age 31 he got a serious back injury that hampered him throughout the year of 2013, by far his worst season.
At age 32 he switched Racquet so he needed some time to get used to it, but then went on to completely dominate the whole ATP tour apart from 1 player and reach 3 grand slam finals at age 32 and 33, only a peak 26-27 year old all time great Djokovic in his prime prevented Federer from winning 3 slams during those years, and Federer despite being 32/33 had quite an even head to head against him.
At the age of 34 Federer got injured again, this time his knee and yet still kept playing at Wimbledon with 1 knee then got seriously injured and missed a big chunk of the season.

So you are wrong.

Messi is a more talented player than Ronaldo... the problem is, Ronaldo works much harder.. not that Messi is a slacker or anything, but we all know how obsessed Ronaldo is with being the best and number 1, and we all read stories of his insane work ethic, the guy is obsessed and almost crazy when it comes to this, his work ethic and desire and will to train in the gym and on the pitch like a madman is as high as the best players in this category, the likes of Jordan etc..

And as you get older the more important it becomes to work hard.

Messi also has a family and kids.. ive said it before, once Messi starts getting kids and settles down, it changes someone.. football is not his priority anymore.. before it was, football was everything.. but now he also has a family that is the priority, so the drive is not the same anymore.
Meanwhile Ronaldo also has kids but he doesn't rly have a "family" he is more of a solo loner guy, dating models and spending some time with his kids here and there, not really the same as Messi, besides hes obsessed and fanatic enough to put football records and being number 1 before anything else even his family lol.

 

[KingLeo10]

To me, it's not even about the absolute distance run though that is obviously important...i don't understand what is wrong with the likes of messi, neymar, and hazard attempting to dribble 2 banks of 4 when it clearly doesn't seem to be working. make some runs in spaces, between defenders, behind defenders...do something DIFFERENT.

 

[BBZ8800]

The big difference for me is that Madrid has way more players who can go past opponents, giving Cronaldo space that Messi doesn’t get. Both their fullbacks, Modric, Isco, Bale, Asensio, heck even Vazquez. We have Dembele (who is still struggling) and Coutinho. That’s it.

Madrid can also score with feet, head and after set pieces.
And create chances with shortpasses, counters, crosses and corners.

Barca can create chances for Messi only through shortpasses and some counters.

1. RM can score goals in lots of different ways
2. RM's players can create lots of different types of chances for CR7
3. CR7 has a better stamina than Messi and he doesn't get dead tired in April
4. CR7 doesn't play CDR
5. CR7 is willing to rotate sometimes

So, there are lots of different reasons why Barca and Messi are easily neutralized in Europe, in April, against Big European teams.
Even though we are better than RM in La Liga against Getafe and Leganes.

Messi dragged this mediocre ass team to a league title while Ronaldo's "self management" was one of the main reasons for RM dropping out of the title race in january.

Just because the B d'Or is determined by CL performance only, doesn't mean that we have to descend into that mindset when evaluating the two.

Still a disappointing performance tonight by Messi.

Neutral fans could say now:
Messi is better against smaller La Liga teams.
CR7 is better against big boys in a CL.

And they wouldn't be too wrong, sadly...

 

[Felipetonelo]

I think we can conclude that Cristiano is the best ever, most complete player ever and is the only reason to Madrid being the best team because he never has bad games, also he has to carry Madrid shit team.
On the other hand Messi is lazy, doesn't have determination, is mentally weak and his best years were only because of XaviIniesta and NeymarSuarez.

 

[TS88]

Fed looked terrible you say?

Federer at the age of 30 won Wimbledon and was number 1 at one point.
At age 31 he got a serious back injury that hampered him throughout the year of 2013, by far his worst season.
At age 32 he switched Racquet so he needed some time to get used to it, but then went on to completely dominate the whole ATP tour apart from 1 player and reach 3 grand slam finals at age 32 and 33, only a peak 26-27 year old all time great Djokovic in his prime prevented Federer from winning 3 slams during those years, and Federer despite being 32/33 had quite an even head to head against him.
At the age of 34 Federer got injured again, this time his knee and yet still kept playing at Wimbledon with 1 knee then got seriously injured and missed a big chunk of the season.

So you are wrong.

Messi is a more talented player than Ronaldo... the problem is, Ronaldo works much harder.. not that Messi is a slacker or anything, but we all know how obsessed Ronaldo is with being the best and number 1, and we all read stories of his insane work ethic, the guy is obsessed and almost crazy when it comes to this, his work ethic and desire and will to train in the gym and on the pitch like a madman is as high as the best players in this category, the likes of Jordan etc..

And as you get older the more important it becomes to work hard.

Messi also has a family and kids.. ive said it before, once Messi starts getting kids and settles down, it changes someone.. football is not his priority anymore.. before it was, football was everything.. but now he also has a family that is the priority, so the drive is not the same anymore.
Meanwhile Ronaldo also has kids but he doesn't rly have a "family" he is more of a solo loner guy, dating models and spending some time with his kids here and there, not really the same as Messi, besides hes obsessed and fanatic enough to put football records and being number 1 before anything else even his family lol.

You're right about him being a solo loner guy. in Ronaldo's movie, his family was saying how he spends most of his time alone and Ronaldo said it himself. He rarely spends a lot of time with others.

 

[xxxxxx]

I'll take a side passing Kroos over Rakitic and Busquets any day. And there's a big difference in the creative players in Real Madrid than there is at Barcelona. Heck, even Marcelo is more creative than most of the Barcelona players.

 

[Pedro]

Barca haven't been the same after Xavi left, Iniesta too old now, and Messi suffering as a result

 

[KingLeo10]

Fed looked terrible you say?

Federer at the age of 30 won Wimbledon and was number 1 at one point.
At age 31 he got a serious back injury that hampered him throughout the year of 2013, by far his worst season.
At age 32 he switched Racquet so he needed some time to get used to it, but then went on to completely dominate the whole ATP tour apart from 1 player and reach 3 grand slam finals at age 32 and 33, only a peak 26-27 year old all time great Djokovic in his prime prevented Federer from winning 3 slams during those years, and Federer despite being 32/33 had quite an even head to head against him.
At the age of 34 Federer got injured again, this time his knee and yet still kept playing at Wimbledon with 1 knee then got seriously injured and missed a big chunk of the season.

So you are wrong.

Messi is a more talented player than Ronaldo... the problem is, Ronaldo works much harder.. not that Messi is a slacker or anything, but we all know how obsessed Ronaldo is with being the best and number 1, and we all read stories of his insane work ethic, the guy is obsessed and almost crazy when it comes to this, his work ethic and desire and will to train in the gym and on the pitch like a madman is as high as the best players in this category, the likes of Jordan etc..

And as you get older the more important it becomes to work hard.

Messi also has a family and kids.. ive said it before, once Messi starts getting kids and settles down, it changes someone.. football is not his priority anymore.. before it was, football was everything.. but now he also has a family that is the priority, so the drive is not the same anymore.
Meanwhile Ronaldo also has kids but he doesn't rly have a "family" he is more of a solo loner guy, dating models and spending some time with his kids here and there, not really the same as Messi, besides hes obsessed and fanatic enough to put football records and being number 1 before anything else even his family lol.

thanks for making the bucket list of excuses for federer. I could make a similar case for Brady too, who went barren from 30 to 37 until becoming champion again. the point of discussion is winning trophies, everything else is secondary.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I think we can conclude that Cristiano is the best ever, most complete player ever and is the only reason to Madrid being the best team because he never has bad games, also he has to carry Madrid shit team.
On the other hand Messi is lazy, doesn't have determination, is mentally weak and his best years were only because of XaviIniesta and NeymarSuarez.

You are sarcastic, right?

Otherwise, you are nuts, man.