10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[JamDav1982]

I'll take a side passing Kroos over Rakitic and Busquets any day. And there's a big difference in the creative players in Real Madrid than there is at Barcelona. Heck, even Marcelo is more creative than most of the Barcelona players.

So why have Barca dominated La Liga and most games v Real in recent years?

 

[DonAndres]

Doubt it. Don't see the same drive in Messi.
[MENTION=12906]DonAndres[/MENTION], this excuse doesn't cut it anymore.

It's not an excuse, it's cold hard analytics.

Not every player has the luxury to just turn on a switch and run hard to finish the chances that they already are 100% certain will come for them. Whether or not Ronaldo can finish, he'll still have an incredible amount of clear chances per game to try. Messi has a much more difficult role to execute, he's not getting the ball point blank in front of goal with the simple expectation to finish.

Messi gets the ball in much more difficult positions than Ronaldo, has a far larger path to goal than Ronaldo with many more obstacles, and is expected to contribute in a lot more different ways. You can't just decide to run harder and then be more successful in a huge uphill battle to gain control of the match. If Messi had 'run harder' today I doubt much else would've happened, he would have to run back to collect the ball from Busi to ever see it and passing forward to Suarez or Roberto would've proved futile in creating actual chances (as every attempt today showed).

There's a reason why a lot of players similar to Messi (Hazard, Neymar, Robben, etc.) when having poor games in the CL show many of the same shortcomings. It's because it takes a certain amount of favorable conditions for them to perform the way they do, otherwise they can't. Ronaldo on the other hand gets his most advantageous conditions every single game without fail, tell me the last time RM's midfielders and fullbacks struggled to create open chances for him in the CL?

 

[Felipetonelo]

You are sarcastic, right?

Otherwise, you are nuts, man.

Of course I was being sarcastic hahaha

 

[DonAK]

Barca need a great midfield again and that doesn't include Iniesta right now or even Rakitic. Look at Real Madrid or heck even Bayern. That's the midfield model we need. Players that will run, but also are technically great and able to get past players and create chances. Iniesta has lost that ability and Rakitic has never been that kind of a player. His compatriot Modric unfortunately is....

 

[xxxxxx]

Barca haven't been the same after Xavi left, Iniesta too old now, and Messi suffering as a result

As any player would. But Messi can still score a shit load of goals with no creative midfielders.

Barcelona have a midfield of Rakitic, Busquets, Paulinho, Andre Gomes and Iniesta (34). Please tell me how Messi can score from that? None of those players can create fuck all.

 

[serghei]

It's not an excuse, it's cold hard analytics.

Not every player has the luxury to just turn on a switch and run hard to finish the chances that they already are 100% certain will come for them. Whether or not Ronaldo can finish, he'll still have an incredible amount of clear chances per game to try. Messi has a much more difficult role to execute, he's not getting the ball point blank in front of goal with the simple expectation to finish.

Messi gets the ball in much more difficult positions than Ronaldo, has a far larger path to goal than Ronaldo with many more obstacles, and is expected to contribute in a lot more different ways. There isn't just an 'on' switch you can flip to focus and run harder and be more successful. If Messi had 'run harder' today I doubt much else would've happened, he would have to run back to collect the ball from Busi to ever see it.

There's a reason why a lot of players similar to Messi (Hazard, Neymar, Robben, etc.) when having poor games in the CL show many of the same shortcomings. It's because it takes a certain amount of favorable conditions for them to perform the way they do, otherwise they can't. Ronaldo on the other hand gets his most advantageous conditions every single game without fail, tell me the last time RM's midfielders and fullbacks struggled to create open chances for him in the CL?

Ronaldo had no right to score that overhead. Could have missed that first shot vs Juve too, as it wasn't an easy finish. A lot of the goals Ronaldo scores, the vast majority of them in CL, aren't served on the plate. He runs his ass off in attack, pressing and running, and scores because he tries hard in every top game. He is focused, determined, a hard worker and a winner. Messi has more talent than him, but the other part, the pure will to compete at all times, that's all Ronaldo. And yes, talent alone doesn't cut it.

 

[Felipetonelo]

So why have Barca dominated La Liga and most games v Real in recent years?

A) Weak teams
B) Real really play against Barca. They don't park the bus.

 

[KingLeo10]

Madrid can also score with feet, head and after set pieces.
And create chances with shortpasses, counters, crosses and corners.

Barca can create chances for Messi only through shortpasses and some counters.

1. RM can score goals in lots of different ways
2. RM's players can create lots of different types of chances for CR7
3. CR7 has a better stamina than Messi and he doesn't get dead tired in April
4. CR7 doesn't play CDR
5. CR7 is willing to rotate sometimes

So, there are lots of different reasons why Barca and Messi are easily neutralized in Europe, in April, against Big European teams.
Even though we are better than RM in La Liga against Getafe and Leganes.



Neutral fans could say now:
Messi is better against smaller La Liga teams.
CR7 is better against big boys in a CL.

And they wouldn't be too wrong, sadly...

so, his performances when barcelona were actually a class team are suddenly gone now? name me one player with top class performances against big team outside of Diego in 86 when his team wasn't top class. I've actually said Messi and CR7 are both ruthless when their teams are in favorable condition. You can argue convincingly that CR7 is less dependent on his team with regards to scoring because he has more weapons in his arsenal (Everyone thinks so). But to act like Messi/Barca was getting knocked out by the likes of Roma every season when he and Barca are literally the ones to have beaten CR7 in a CL final.

 

[xxxxxx]

So why have Barca dominated La Liga and most games v Real in recent years?

Because sometimes the Real Madrid players can have off days and the Barcelona players can have amazing games. It can happen. It still doesn't discount the fact that Ronaldo has much better support to create chances for him. Messi doesn't get the chances Ronaldo does. Messi has to create the chances and finish them. Ronaldo only has to be in the right place at the right time.... especially these days.

 

[Judoman]

Ah yes, here we go again. The hordes of moaning Fifa/FM kids with selective memories. Ungrateful pricks. You can shove CR and Real in your
hipocritical soft behinds.

"Fans".

 

[Hamzah]

Next season coutinho will replace iniesta, Dembele will have a greater role. Who knows how Arthur will develop, maybe he can be a controller.

Oh yeah and griezmann will actually contribute to build up play. Things are better for Messi hopefully.

 

[xxxxxx]

Ronaldo had no right to score that overhead. Could have missed that first shot vs Juve too, as it wasn't an easy finish. A lot of the goals Ronaldo scores, the vast majority of them in CL, aren't served on the plate. He runs his ass off in attack, pressing and running, and scores because he tries hard in every top game. He is focused, determined, a hard worker and a winner. Messi has more talent than him, but the other part, the pure will to compete at all times, that's all Ronaldo. And yes, talent alone doesn't cut it.

And how many 'times has Ronaldo failed to score a bicycle kick? He misses so many. He just so happened to score one this time... and credit to him, it was a cracking goal. As I said, his team has the vision to create those chances for him..... Messi isn't lucky in that case.

 

[fcb2000]

You're right about him being a solo loner guy. in Ronaldo's movie, his family was saying how he spends most of his time alone and Ronaldo said it himself. He rarely spends a lot of time with others.

This was back then. Now he is more of a family man. The girl he is currently dating was a nobody when he met her so is pretty grounded and is around him all the time. His family has grown substantially since then too - having 3 more kids. Somehow, that hasn't seemed to affect his mentality for football though. The guy still finds time to train relentlessly somehow..

 

[BBZ8800]

Before the pass comes the move, as Xavi once said. If Messi played for Madrid instead of Ronaldo they'd lose and people would blame rubbish Benzema scoring 5 goals all year and turtle Kroos making only sideway passes. If you actually watch Madrid they create "easy" chances through spamming crosses. Ronaldo lives off aerial balls, being at the right place at the right time for second balls and being quick on counter attacks. Messi doesn't have that scoring versatility, creating chances for Messi is a lot harder.

True.
But scoring for majority of our team is way harder.

If our attacking trio next season will be Messi-Coutinho-Griezmann, we can expect a good old "Barca's problems" and being KOd in quarters of a CL.

We will win La Liga, against smaller teams though, since it seems as a trend lately:
Possession and technical one dimensional football is good enough against league opponents, as long as you play consistently well.

But you are screwed in Europe against physical big boys.
And then CR7 will probably win 4 Cls in a row in 2019 with RM's style of play which is way more dimensional for a CL level than our play.

Again, we will win La Liga and a CDR with our style, on the other hand...

 

[serghei]

And how many 'times has Ronaldo failed to score a bicycle kick? He misses so many. He just so happened to score one this time... and credit to him, it was a cracking goal. As I said, his team has the vision to create those chances for him..... Messi isn't lucky in that case.

He scores great goals when it matters. He's by far the most decisive player in his team.