10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Total-Football]

What a load of crap.

Only to discuss when Messi has the upper hand?

Messi v Ronaldo is one of biggest narratives in football and will be on here.

I have no respect for him for this shameless attitude of his. In my lifetime i have seen many greats in attack, not one of them dives as shamelessly as he.

 

[DonAndres]

The way you are describing it makes it seem that Messi is some luxury player akin to Ozil who needs specific conditions to flourish and cannot impose his game if such conditions are lacking.Honestly, you should just analyze Ronaldo's movement and you will see why he is the best goalscorer in the world.

Also while I agree that Messi has to drag this team on his own, it should be noted that Messi's style of play is part of the problem. By Messi not offering himself, just standing, many of our plays become static because we always search for Messi who often makes no visible effort to move into channels. Don't get me started on our players' obsession with Leo scoring. Alba, Suarez, Neymar, at least those three always saw only Messi and passed to him when there were far better options.

I think you misunderstood. If anything it's Ronaldo who needs a more specific set of conditions to succeed while Messi can do a lot more with less. Barca this season in La Liga, Barca from 2012-2014, and Argentina all these past years, have all been overachieving sides that were carried by Messi. I was just saying that Ronaldo has the conditions to succeed whereas Messi doesn't and this has been the case for most of the past 4-5 years.

Domestically, Barca's squads have been decent enough to impose themselves on most Liga opponents but in the CL when the midfield battle is CRUCIAL and the quality of your teammates matters more, Messi can't do as much. Same with playing against the likes of Germany or Brazil with Argentina. There's only so much you can do when the rest of your team is outmatched and outplayed. Suarez hadn't scored in the CL for over a YEAR until that rubbish open tap-in vs. Roma first leg. Iniesta has had more shocking matches than decent ones for a while now. Rakitic hasn't been able to make progressive passes between defenders to break lines against ANY tough CL opponent since 2015, it's actually uncanny how vanilla he is in those matches.

Messi can be somewhat lazy off the ball at times. But we've always seen that when the team around him performs anywhere near the way it should, it doesn't matter and he does stay consistently active enough to impact the game over the whole 90 minutes. And ideally you want Messi in the hole receiving passes up from Raki/Iniesta and then creating danger from there. That's the position where he can do the most damage.

However, for him to have been more 'active' today he literally would've had to drop next to the likes of Busi and Semedo to receive the ball. Which he does sometimes and is capable of creating chances from those absurdly difficult positions. He tends not to drop deep and force things deep as much as he should in certain situations, something that Neymar does in EVERY situation (dropping deep to the fullback/DM, picking the ball up, and forcing actions until something works). Neymar's approach is better when you are desperate in a game and need your best player to step up and do everything and take over without thinking about sharing the ball or team buildup. Messi isn't assertive enough in these scenarios, but I'd rather him be the hyper-efficient machine he is than a high usage, high volume, trial and error ballhog the way Neymar is.

So essentially for him to have worked harder off the ball today he would've been playing like Neymar does. That COULD'VE ended up a la the 6-1 remontada where he carried us to victory, or a lot like Neymar's Juventus performances where he was just spamming hopeless actions without success all game. Or like Neymar vs RM where he was just wasting countless possessions dicking around with dribbles in midfield.

 

[footyfan]

There is no shame to admit that Ronaldo is the superior CL knockout player. In the past 5 seasons Messi scored 2 goals from the quarter finals onwards while Ronaldo scored 20. It's what it is and it's not only because Madrid have a better midfield either. Madrid were heavily outplayed many times by even Wolfsburg and Schalke in recent years but Ronaldo came up with braces and hattricks when needed and we Barca fans played it down as "rubbish opponents anyway".

Make it 3 goals in 6 seasons. He scored 1 goal against PSG in 12/13, and 2 goals against Bayern in 14/15. Unbelievable record tbh. Ronaldo has 25 goals if you consider 6 seasons. And this season is not over yet. Even this round is not over yet for him. I'd say 30 is in reach. 30 goals vs 3 goals. That disparity

 

[footyfan]

I think you misunderstood. If anything it's Ronaldo who needs a more specific set of conditions to succeed while Messi can do a lot more with less. Barca this season in La Liga, Barca from 2012-2014, and Argentina all these past years, have all been overachieving sides that were carried by Messi. I was just saying that Ronaldo has the conditions to succeed whereas Messi doesn't and this has been the case for most of the past 4-5 years.

Domestically, Barca's squads have been decent enough to impose themselves on most Liga opponents but in the CL when the midfield battle is CRUCIAL and the quality of your teammates matters more, Messi can't do as much. Same with playing against the likes of Germany or Brazil with Argentina. There's only so much you can do when the rest of your team is outmatched and outplayed. Suarez hadn't scored in the CL for over a YEAR until that rubbish open tap-in vs. Roma first leg. Iniesta has had more shocking matches than decent ones for a while now. Rakitic hasn't been able to make progressive passes between defenders to break lines against ANY tough CL opponent since 2015, it's actually uncanny how vanilla he is in those matches.

Messi can be somewhat lazy off the ball at times. But we've always seen that when the team around him performs anywhere near the way it should, it doesn't matter and he does stay consistently active enough to impact the game over the whole 90 minutes. And ideally you want Messi in the hole receiving passes up from Raki/Iniesta and then creating danger from there. That's the position where he can do the most damage.

However, for him to have been more 'active' today he literally would've had to drop next to the likes of Busi and Semedo to receive the ball. Which he does sometimes and is capable of creating chances from those absurdly difficult positions. He tends not to drop deep and force things deep as much as he should in certain situations, something that Neymar does in EVERY situation (dropping deep to the fullback/DM, picking the ball up, and forcing actions until something works). Neymar's approach is better when you are desperate in a game and need your best player to step up and do everything and take over without thinking about sharing the ball or team buildup. Messi isn't assertive enough in these scenarios, but I'd rather him be the hyper-efficient machine he is than a high usage, high volume, trial and error ballhog the way Neymar is.

So essentially for him to have worked harder off the ball today he would've been playing like Neymar does. That COULD'VE ended up a la the 6-1 remontada where he carried us to victory, or a lot like Neymar's Juventus performances where he was just spamming hopeless actions without success all game. Or like Neymar vs RM where he was just wasting countless possessions dicking around with dribbles in midfield.

The problem as you might have noticed is that Messi needs the midfield to work for him in a particular way. For somebody like Ronaldo it is not necessary that the midfield has to play a certain way. He scores in all types of situations, in all kinds of formations, and regardless who his striker partner is and who the midfield personnel are. btw I also saw a stat on reddit that Messi has 4 goals from a losing position, while Ronaldo has 22. Why the disparity. It surely can't be that RM go behind than Barca that much more often. Ronaldo scores goals in almost any condition and any game situation over the past few seasons. It is not all down to what a "niche" player he is. He is anything but niche in his role frankly. Add to that, he has to shoulder the goalscoring burden every single RM game.

His staggering record over the past 6 seasons in the CL is testament to that. He has consistently outscored Messi every single season in the knockouts.

Talking about midfield battles, Ronaldo scored against PSG despite having a midfield of Kovacic, Casemiro, Vazquez, and Asensio. And PSG handily controlled possession until the time Ronaldo scored. Why is Messi so midfield dependent in the big games?

 

[KingLeo10]

The cherrypicking of time frames and stats from both sides is getting tedious. What can be agreed upon is that CR7 has delivered over expectations last few seasons and messi hasn't, but to pick out times in which real have had the better team than barca aside from 14/15 and use that to hammer home "disparities" is as bad as using opta "dribbles/chances created stats" to big up Messi, Neymar, or others of that ilk and deride CR7 as just a "poacher".

It's like me saying in the 5 times CR7 and Messi have met in CL semis and Final:

CR7 has 0 goals and 0 assists
Messi has 3 goals

Do you see what's wrong with cherrypicking times when Barca was clearly superior to the teams CR7 had?

 

[Luftstalag14]

Talking about midfield battles, Ronaldo scored against PSG despite having a midfield of Kovacic, Casemiro, Vazquez, and Asensio. And PSG handily controlled possession until the time Ronaldo scored. Why is Messi so midfield dependent in the big games?

I am just taking a stab at the question, here is my guess:

-Facing better defense Messi's ability to dribble past players to create scoring opportunities for himself is diminished
-Facing better teams our midfield's inability to drive the ball forward and create chances is further magnified therefore Messi often had to drop deeper
-Ronaldo roams mostly inside or near the penalty box and he is so greater at headers he could capitalize on one cross and score despite the midfield being dominated by the opposing team while Messi can't, being shorter and a lot worse at headers

 

[Stoichkov1]

The problem as you might have noticed is that Messi needs the midfield to work for him in a particular way. For somebody like Ronaldo it is not necessary that the midfield has to play a certain way. He scores in all types of situations, in all kinds of formations, and regardless who his striker partner is and who the midfield personnel are. btw I also saw a stat on reddit that Messi has 4 goals from a losing position, while Ronaldo has 22. Why the disparity. It surely can't be that RM go behind than Barca that much more often. Ronaldo scores goals in almost any condition and any game situation over the past few seasons. It is not all down to what a "niche" player he is. He is anything but niche in his role frankly. Add to that, he has to shoulder the goalscoring burden every single RM game.

His staggering record over the past 6 seasons in the CL is testament to that. He has consistently outscored Messi every single season in the knockouts.

Talking about midfield battles, Ronaldo scored against PSG despite having a midfield of Kovacic, Casemiro, Vazquez, and Asensio. And PSG handily controlled possession until the time Ronaldo scored. Why is Messi so midfield dependent in the big games?

Real Madrid didn't play as bad as we played against Roma today, not at all.

What he needs is a midfield who could get the ball to him in the final third where he makes the difference.

 

[Cruyff-Total Football]

I have no respect for him for this shameless attitude of his. In my lifetime i have seen many greats in attack, not one of them dives as shamelessly as he.

[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION] is the worst Ronaldo fanboy you could ever see. You can verify his chat history. He defends Ronaldo as if his life depends on it. And takes all the possible ways to diminish Messi. If you ask him, he will say that he believes Messi is the greatest ever but Ronaldo is very much closer to him. But his post history will show that he's the greatest Ronaldo fanboy you've ever met. This forum is the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments", Messi disappeared in the last thee knockout matches. While the truth is that without Messi this Barca wouldn't even finish top 4 in League. JamDav is the most active account in this forum. He spreads cancer so effectively that Ronaldo being better than Messi in the last 4 years is a common belief in this forum. I'm sure you can never find a single post of him defending Messi even when he was at his best.

 

[JamDav1982]

[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION] is the worst Ronaldo fanboy you could ever see. You can verify his chat history. He defends Ronaldo as if his life depends on it. And takes all the possible ways to diminish Messi. If you ask him, he will say that he believes Messi is the greatest ever but Ronaldo is very much closer to him. But his post history will show that he's the greatest Ronaldo fanboy you've ever met. This forum is the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments", Messi disappeared in the last thee knockout matches. While the truth is that without Messi this Barca wouldn't even finish top 4 in League. JamDav is the most active account in this forum. He spreads cancer so effectively that Ronaldo being better than Messi in the last 4 years is a common belief in this forum. I'm sure you can never find a single post of him defending Messi even when he was at his best.

Haha you making things up again.

I give Ronaldo credit when bitter fuckers like you dont have a clue. Simple as that.

You are on a meltdown and rambling.

Feel free to 'verify my chat history'.

Ronaldo has been better in CL than Messi in past four years. Only a neep like you will try to claim otherwise.

 

[Total-Football]

[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION] is the worst Ronaldo fanboy you could ever see. You can verify his chat history. He defends Ronaldo as if his life depends on it. And takes all the possible ways to diminish Messi. If you ask him, he will say that he believes Messi is the greatest ever but Ronaldo is very much closer to him. But his post history will show that he's the greatest Ronaldo fanboy you've ever met. This forum is the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments", Messi disappeared in the last thee knockout matches. While the truth is that without Messi this Barca wouldn't even finish top 4 in League. JamDav is the most active account in this forum. He spreads cancer so effectively that Ronaldo being better than Messi in the last 4 years is a common belief in this forum. I'm sure you can never find a single post of him defending Messi even when he was at his best.

You can tell jamdav is around 16 18 years old judging by the way he comments so i never take it to the heart, be it about messi or anything. Not that it s wrong to be young

 

[Luftstalag14]

[MENTION=6099]JamDav1982[/MENTION] is the worst Ronaldo fanboy you could ever see. You can verify his chat history. He defends Ronaldo as if his life depends on it. And takes all the possible ways to diminish Messi. If you ask him, he will say that he believes Messi is the greatest ever but Ronaldo is very much closer to him. But his post history will show that he's the greatest Ronaldo fanboy you've ever met. This forum is the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments", Messi disappeared in the last thee knockout matches. While the truth is that without Messi this Barca wouldn't even finish top 4 in League. JamDav is the most active account in this forum. He spreads cancer so effectively that Ronaldo being better than Messi in the last 4 years is a common belief in this forum. I'm sure you can never find a single post of him defending Messi even when he was at his best.

Cut the name-calling and be a little subjective and humble please. Most Barca fans love Messi and regard him as the best but let's call a spade a spade. This forum is certainly not " the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments"", neutral fans and other non-Barca fans are saying that too. It is a fact that Ronaldo has been a lot more consistent in delivering in CL KO games in the last several seasons. A fact. Whether that makes Ronaldo better or closer to Messi is up to each individual to decide, but most Barca fans are not saying Ronaldo is a better player overall, certainly not here.

 

[JamDav1982]

You can tell jamdav is around 16 18 years old judging by the way he comments so i never take it to the heart, be it about messi or anything. Not that it s wrong to be young

Yet you are the one that cries about banning people comparing Messi and Ronaldo when it doesnt go way you like.

Throw toys out pram like a child.

 

[magicomessi]

nobody is saying Ronaldo is better. People are saying that Ronaldo has performed far better in CL knock-out rounds which is true.

Scored a lot of goals yes but perfomed better !!!! I think most of you no nothing then about football

 

[Cruyff-Total Football]

Cut the name-calling and be a little subjective and humble please. Most Barca fans love Messi and regard him as the best but let's call a spade a spade. This forum is certainly not " the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments"", neutral fans and other non-Barca fans are saying that too. It is a fact that Ronaldo has been a lot more consistent in delivering in CL KO games in the last several seasons. A fact. Whether that makes Ronaldo better or closer to Messi is up to each individual to decide, but most Barca fans are not saying Ronaldo is a better player overall, certainly not here.

Half of the forum criticize Messi. I've no problem with them. I just feel despised on seeing a Ronaldo fanboy pretending to be a barca fan and spreading cancer. Morten and Wolfe and Jai Ventura all are honest with the clubs and the players they support.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Cut the name-calling and be a little subjective and humble please. Most Barca fans love Messi and regard him as the best but let's call a spade a spade. This forum is certainly not " the only place where you constantly hear things like "Ronaldo shows up in big moments"", neutral fans and other non-Barca fans are saying that too. It is a fact that Ronaldo has been a lot more consistent in delivering in CL KO games in the last several seasons. A fact. Whether that makes Ronaldo better or closer to Messi is up to each individual to decide, but most Barca fans are not saying Ronaldo is a better player overall, certainly not here.

True but it's also true that in the last 2 CL campaigns Barca conceded 4 goals against PSG, 3 against Juve and 3 against Roma now.

We were also the worse team against Chelsea but Messi saved us.

Real Madrid as a team doesn't play like that in the CL.