10 - Lionel Messi - v5

footyfan

Calma, calma
The cherrypicking of time frames and stats from both sides is getting tedious. What can be agreed upon is that CR7 has delivered over expectations last few seasons and messi hasn't, but to pick out times in which real have had the better team than barca aside from 14/15 and use that to hammer home "disparities" is as bad as using opta "dribbles/chances created stats" to big up Messi, Neymar, or others of that ilk and deride CR7 as just a "poacher".

It's like me saying in the 5 times CR7 and Messi have met in CL semis and Final:

CR7 has 0 goals and 0 assists
Messi has 3 goals

Do you see what's wrong with cherrypicking times when Barca was clearly superior to the teams CR7 had?

Where's the cherrypicking though - I'm taking all the seasons since Pep left (which happen to be the last 6 seasons), regardless of how successful Barca/Madrid have been in that time.

I am just taking a stab at the question, here is my guess:

-Facing better defense Messi's ability to dribble past players to create scoring opportunities for himself is diminished
-Facing better teams our midfield's inability to drive the ball forward and create chances is further magnified therefore Messi often had to drop deeper
-Ronaldo roams mostly inside or near the penalty box and he is so greater at headers he could capitalize on one cross and score despite the midfield being dominated by the opposing team while Messi can't, being shorter and a lot worse at headers

I agree. I just asked the question rhetorically to be honest.


The variation on Ronaldo's play is overstated. RM's squads have renewed greatly over the years and they've had different formations but the plays where Ronaldo scores have by and large been a result of heavy buildup on the wings and a huge emphasis on crosses/1 touch finishes and 1-2 man fastbreaks. As I said before, especially under Zidane, it's become a routine of 2 variations of a crossing play once they get to the final third and very little else. It's not like Ronaldo has been out there taking down parked buses with his dribbling and then scoring, or longshots and scoring (not for the past 5 years anyway) and doing different things against different opponents or situations. His scoring is pretty consistently uniform and the actual situations where he's involved have remained the same, despite whatever formation/roster changes he's dealt with.

Also, you said that he did it with a midfield of Kovacic/Casemiro/etc. But in that game, RM actually did STILL manhandle PSG's midfield. They had more possession, produced almost 3x as many shots (only 4 to Ronaldo, so they weren't just creating because of Ronaldo's runs or whatever which is a totally fictional narrative), more than 3x as many key passes, etc. As well as the fact that Verratti only played 2/3 of that game before getting sent off and both of RM's goals came AFTER the red. Casemiro also had an insane game, he truly is one of the best DM's in the world right now. It's not just about the midfielders but the fullbacks in Marcelo/Carvajal as well who are crucial in progressing the ball and creating chances for them.

In reality, RM have not been on the losing side of a midfield battle in the CL for a while now. In fact the only opponent that has really ever outplayed them there since Zidane took over was Tottenham this season in the 3-1, where Ronaldo's goal came from a stupid error/rebound.

And in these past 2 years and even before that, RM's definition of losing a midfield battle has been different from Barca's. They can get outplayed, but still make quick transition plays on the other end and create a lot of chances. They still find space a lot and generally do go back and forth with the opposition midfield. For Barca it's getting thoroughly outrun/outpressed in midfield while lacking a forward outlet in Rakitic, or playing ponderously slow against a parked bus and not penetrating whatsoever. In these cases they have an insanely difficult time even getting the ball past Busquets/Raki/Iniesta who are all forced to play a lot deeper. Whereas in RM's midfield upsets they are still going end to end albeit less effectively than the opposition. Part of this is that they have the better personnel to deal with adversity in midfield and also that Barca's style can stalemate them in some games because of how specifically they play.

A game where RM are being properly outplayed in midfield the way Barca have been usually goes with a 'Ronaldo was completely invisible' performance. Like many Clasicos in the Pep days, the 0-4 Clasico at the Bernabeu, Dortmund in 2013, vs teams like Germany/Spain/Chile with Portugal, etc.

I think your Ronaldo goalscoring thing suffers from recency bias - and also even within your own post you've mentioned quite a few ways he scores.

About the PSG game, when Ronaldo scored in the 51st min, Verratti hadn't been sent off yet. So it's not true that RM's goals came after the red. Also at the time of the goal, PSG were winning the possession battle 59%-41% and had similar number of shots.

Comparing Portugal to teams like Spain and Germany is frankly very unfair, we are trying to talk about teams with similar level of quality here.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Well, good for us the World doesn't end in 2018 lol

If the club directors and management can get their heads out of their asses and hold the manager and players accountable we could reverse this. Dump all the useless players and sign the right players. Both established WC players and great talents. No half measures like Gomes and Paulinho.

Got to start this summer though. Bring in Tuchel or just a proper manager that puts emphasis on tactics that revolves around attacking movement, is fearless and in control, and dump all the players that aren't good enough and somehow find a way to bring in another WC MF, if not two with Iniesta leaving. I know a lot of people here love Rakitic to death, but he's just not what we need moving on forward. I would take an older Modric right now over Rakitic any day of the week.

























Unlikely to happen though because we're the nice guys Barcelona that will give everyone a freebie season while our competitors are ruthless in their quest for CL glory.
 
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KingLeo10

Senior Member
Where's the cherrypicking though - I'm taking all the seasons since Pep left (which happen to be the last 6 seasons), regardless of how successful Barca/Madrid have been in that time.

because messi and CR7 are not isolated entities that are going to provide the same output irrespective of the strength of teams. I'm just saying that arbitrarily limiting it to since pep left is obviously going to make the contrast between CR7 and messi's output appear wider than it is. Same way, I could limit it to the 2008-2012 seasons where CR7 scored 1 goal v barca in 5 years and 0 in H2H meeting with messi/Barca in 5 CL semis/final. Both approaches would be doing a disservice to these players because we're setting up a biased time frame.
 

footyfan

Calma, calma
because messi and CR7 are not isolated entities that are going to provide the same output irrespective of the strength of teams. I'm just saying that arbitrarily limiting it to since pep left is obviously going to make the contrast between CR7 and messi's output appear wider than it is. Same way, I could limit it to the 2008-2012 seasons where CR7 scored 1 goal v barca in 5 years and 0 in H2H meeting with messi/Barca in 5 CL semis/final. Both approaches would be doing a disservice to these players because we're setting up a biased time frame.

But frankly, absolutely no one would argue that Messi was far the better player in 2008-2012. And I'd say CR performed better in that period than Messi did recently in CL. And CR was endlessly made fun of then for being a big-game choker and being a flat track bully (even though he scored a lot in big games for United). And on top of that, Messi's record in CL recently is by far worse than Ronaldo's was then.
 

Devils

Senior Member
He's not to blame solely for this loss, but he was just as bad as everyone else.

But I'd be lying if I said for a guy of his talent, I'd wish he'd make more of an impact in these games.
 

Richard.H

Senior Member
I get the feeling alot of 'barca' fans on here are actually just Messi fans. fuck the ballon d'or, fuck the world cup, fuck the legacy, fuck the debate. BARCA just got humiliated and Messi did fuck all to change that.

Messi is still and always will be the GOAT together with Maradona

Messi
Maradona
Pele
Cristiano

I don't agree with Jam often but hes right, the past 4-5 years the gap has been closed and Cristiano has put his name in the GOAT list. if he wins another CL, 3 in a row, he has a big shout in being at the top of that list. it depends how you look at football. Messi is obviously superior in terms of talent, entertainment etc but whos had the better career?

Mate that's a given, everyone knows that most users here are Messi fans. The "fan" base in this forum would be cut in half when Messi retires/leaves.
 

bismp

Well-known member
He’s not winning the WC.If he can’t save Barca from losing 3-0 to Roma,then it is sadlly evident that he lacks the determination to take over games when things aren’t going well.

Of course he has won us countless games all these years,but he is pretty much responsible for going out in the QF this way for 3 years in a row.
 

Truthist

New member
He just doesn't seem to want it enough in these games. You know, bust that gut and leave everything on the pitch enough. You reap what you sow ultimately and it's his own fat if CR7 overtakes him.
 

UEFA_Barça_Chris

o Fenômeno
well, do you honestly think messi should not be scrutinized? what did he do in two legs against roma in the CL knockouts? you be and remain the best you must demonstrate it. please tell us how he has done that in the CL for the past few years (in the important knockout matches)

Na i never said he shouldnt be accountable. While Messi did started bullshitting by walking, this time we can at least say the situation regarding EV fatiguing our players as part of the reason.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
But frankly, absolutely no one would argue that Messi was far the better player in 2008-2012. And I'd say CR performed better in that period than Messi did recently in CL. And CR was endlessly made fun of then for being a big-game choker and being a flat track bully (even though he scored a lot in big games for United). And on top of that, Messi's record in CL recently is by far worse than Ronaldo's was then.

I actually agree with everything you've written here. I've got no problem with admitting CR7 has a better career record in CL than Messi, my problem is people (not you) who make it seem like messi is some hazard, neymar level who's never dominated big games with consistency, when in fact he used to do just that and CR7 has been doing it the last few years instead of Messi.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
Mate that's a given, everyone knows that most users here are Messi fans. The "fan" base in this forum would be cut in half when Messi retires/leaves.

Let's not forget the fairweather/deluded fans either who scream for treble every year and then wonder why we are utterly garbage in april when they were the ones who wanted the copa in the first place. because treble. :lol:
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
He just doesn't seem to want it enough in these games. You know, bust that gut and leave everything on the pitch enough. You reap what you sow ultimately and it's his own fat if CR7 overtakes him.

Or he simply have limitations. Pre-2014 Real Madrid were not getting to the CL final and went out where CR was barely doing anything and even missing crucial shots or penalties(like the shootout vs Bayern).

Now he has a great team like Messi did earlier and he along with Real Madrid are doing much better while we're doing badly in the CL.

Messi might be the GOAT, but even he cannot carry a team the distance. That's simply not possible. Even Michael Jordan couldn't do shit before Scottie Pippen joined him.

Now obviously Messi could still do better, but he's a different type of player that's older whose supporting cast is mediocre.

Only ter Stegen, Umtiti or Pique(one of them because Ramos is clutch and he should be in the lineup), Busquets and Messi would get into the Real Madrid team now. Would put CR as CF and bench both Benzema and Suarez' asses.

That's 4 out of 11 players.

Barca's XI right now is easily worse than Mourinho Madrid IMO, and the competition was higher back then too.
 
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DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Anyway, we can argue this all we want. It's not the end. Both of these players will play on for another three years in these two clubs I can imagine.

And Barcelona can rectify this situation, by bringing in a manager that actually plays attacking minded football and is willing to take risks when needed, even Zidane takes risks when he has to, and "Fortune favours the brave" isn't just a cliche, it's true.

Get rid of all the players that simply aren't good enough and spend more money on established WC midfielders. We need a WC midfield again. Iniesta and Rakitic are not that anymore, don't fool yourself people, performances in the CL exposes both of them badly.

Barcelona need to be more ruthless. Stop being the damn nice guys. Hold manager and players both accountable. If someone is underperforming and on a huge wage he gotta go.
 

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