11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[Flavia]

it's just that when it comes to neymar it seems like only goals matter for a ton of posters.

No passing skills (they're weak and not improving), way too obsessed with messi, still ball-hogging at times (remember the stat showing only messi ran with the ball more than neymar in the liga) with very little coming out of it. Saying any of this will result in "39 goals last season, Bdor top3"

Well, he was brought for goals. Pedro had 2 really bad seasons before Neymar arrived. He and Alexis weren't helping Messi. Remember when all we talked about here was the need for players to take the burden of scoring from Messi? I do. But now that we have that, somehow it is bad.

I don't care for Neymar being a top 3 in the bdor, and it would be nice if he assisted more, but that's not his primary job. He is not Messi, or ever he'll be. To be a scoring and assisting machine is rare.

 

[Hamzah]

in the current team what he's doing is great. a guy that can score tons and shows up in big moments. he's already shown he can be more of a messi and also be the main creative player , but doesn't do it much for barca because we have messi and suarez. he's done it for brazil and even barca when messi was injured.

in the future once messi is older/retired neymar will become the ''new messi'' (maybe not to the same level, but you know what i mean)

 

[Darko]

His passing skills are not weak and his "ball hogging" is something he could improve but he doesn't lose the ball so it's not like he's Wellbeck trying to dribble and losing possession, he pulls defenders out of position or wins a free kick. Too obsessed with Messi isn't such a bad thing since giving the ball to Messi is mostly beneficial.
The only thing I agree with is that he could improve his final ball and his awareness, so that his ball hogging is done in an Iniesta way, with a clear plan of dragging defenders and playing a through ball, or laying it off to a supporting player and then making an attacking run.

 

[Gumbau]

I wouldn't be surprised if Neymar scores 50+ goals this season.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

His passing skills are not weak and his "ball hogging" is something he could improve but he doesn't lose the ball so it's not like he's Wellbeck trying to dribble and losing possession, he pulls defenders out of position or wins a free kick. Too obsessed with Messi isn't such a bad thing since giving the ball to Messi is mostly beneficial.
The only thing I agree with is that he could improve his final ball and his awareness, so that his ball hogging is done in an Iniesta way, with a clear plan of dragging defenders and playing a through ball, or laying it off to a supporting player and then making an attacking run.

you say neymar's passing is fine than totally separate it from awareness and final ball like they're not intrinsically linked. Ok, Neymar's short passing is alright i guess.
His long passing is very lacking, no vision, and almost nothing ever comes of his ball-hogging (fouls being the only silver lining).
Just look at his goals. How many had neymar spend a long time on the ball ? Very, very few.
[MENTION=20103]Flavia[/MENTION] he is a goalscorer now, who's to say that is the reason he was brought in ? Ney being a fine dribbler seems an equally convincing reason ( let's not digress on neymargate )

What I am trying to say is that Neymar is on the receiving end of Suarez being here and Messi magnetizing everything on the right side of the pitch. He has scored many goals but very few have something to do with his unusual playing style. If he performed better in his solo runs, he could easily grab en extra 20 G+A.

 

[Flavia]

He always was a goalscorer, @TornAndFrayed. He was one for Santos too. Many here didn't believe he could replicate that in europe, because he was scoring "only against weak opposition" in Brazil.
Messi is a much better creater than Neymar, Suarez too. Neymar needs to improve his final ball, but he still created a lot of chances this year:

[tw]620753936228712448[/tw]

Only a few were converted, because he needs to improve it, but he tries. We have Messi and Suarez with double digits in goals and assists. I'm not sure it's doable to all 3 to get there, or if there's a need to.

 

[God Serena]

Messi and Suarez do enough assisting that it really isn't as important for Neymar to do it. Pedro has more assists, but he's far less selfish in general, often choosing to make a square pass to set up a teammate for a tap-in than going for the maybe/maybe not goal himself. Neymar has scored many goals where it's practically impossible to miss (He even made Tello score a hat-trick) but he's also had numerous moments of greatness himself where he's saved our bacon. I wouldn't trade Neymar for the world.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

My pov stems exclusively from watching the games and nothing else. What i see is that Neymar's output is heavily concentrated in plays where his influence is actually minimal. A true finisher's job which he is doing great, thankfully, because he doesn't have much going for him otherwise. Yes that part is a natural evolution of the team as a whole. With what suarez and messi bring, Ney is often in a position to finish, that's fair. Far from me to say that neymar is looking to statpad.

Yet still 95% of the times Neymar gets the ball, he tries to create, as you say. And he is failing so far, at least to the high standard that he is held at (standards still nowhere close to mess's or even suarez'). I would like to take your chances created stat at face value, but I can't as it directly contradicts my impression watching every game and it's not verifiable (or is it?)

Long story short; Neymar's finishing, 10/10. Everything else, 6/10 ? He is not a well-rounded player yet by a long shot but every criticism gets the automatic "yet he scored 39 goals". It's tiring. I for one don't rate goals alone as high as some others may, so I'd be a hypocrite, for example, to judge cristiano and neymar with different scales (i dont wish to bring the portuguese into the debate though )

 

[God Serena]

I would gladly bring a player with a goal tally like Cristiano's into the club. His assisting could be a 0 for all I care if he was able to so consistently save the day for us. Can you imagine how many goals Ronaldo would have here if he wasn't a total prick and didn't have Real Madrid on his resume? All those chances Neymar misses, suddenly finding their way into the back of the net with such consistency... *shivers* Having that type of player in the team isn't bad when you've got players like Messi and Suarez backing you up, although that may be an unpopular opinion.

We won the treble and of the three the only one that seemed to challenge us at all was the liga. I'd say Neymar's role as it is is just fine.

 

[Vlom]

Ok so you basically reject the stats Torn, what does "exclusively from watching the games" mean ?

If you have a made up opinion, it won't change then if you reject every reasonable fact because it doesn't match what you "feel"..

I am absolutely certain that if Neymar was an awesome dribbler/creater and bad finisher/scorer, like say Hazard, we'd be having the same discussion but in reverse, "yeah we don't need creaters we have messi, we need him to score".

 

[Flavia]

My pov stems exclusively from watching the games and nothing else. What i see is that Neymar's output is heavily concentrated in plays where his influence is actually minimal. A true finisher's job which he is doing great, thankfully, because he doesn't have much going for him otherwise. Yes that part is a natural evolution of the team as a whole. With what suarez and messi bring, Ney is often in a position to finish, that's fair. Far from me to say that neymar is looking to statpad.

Yet still 95% of the times Neymar gets the ball, he tries to create, as you say. And he is failing so far, at least to the high standard that he is held at (standards still nowhere close to mess's or even suarez'). I would like to take your chances created stat at face value, but I can't as it directly contradicts my impression watching every game and it's not verifiable (or is it?)

Long story short; Neymar's finishing, 10/10. Everything else, 6/10 ? He is not a well-rounded player yet by a long shot but every criticism gets the automatic "yet he scored 39 goals". It's tiring. I for one don't rate goals alone as high as some others may, so I'd be a hypocrite, for example, to judge cristiano and neymar with different scales (i dont wish to bring the portuguese into the debate though )

squawka also has his chances created value high, 72 total. Those values I posted earlier are only for 2015.
and it'll be great if he can improve this, which I think he will. But this isn't a cause for concern or so much complaining, imo. Not when we have Messi. What was missing from previous seasons was someone to finish the chances Messi creates. I also think the way Enrique set things up influences this outcome. It really gets down to what the team needs more. And other players scoring is more important than creating, as there are already many creators.

Just a look at the goals scored table from 11/12 and 12/13 is enough to be see it was way more balanced this season.

 

[Height18]

He always was a goalscorer, @TornAndFrayed. He was one for Santos too. Many here didn't believe he could replicate that in europe, because he was scoring "only against weak opposition" in Brazil.
Messi is a much better creater than Neymar, Suarez too. Neymar needs to improve his final ball, but he still created a lot of chances this year:

[tw]620753936228712448[/tw]

Only a few were converted, because he needs to improve it, but he tries. We have Messi and Suarez with double digits in goals and assists. I'm not sure it's doable to all 3 to get there, or if there's a need to.

Some of them:
2:55 - 5:00
[youtube]PPYi1rTn0BE[/youtube]

But hey people cant remember none of that when they have a fake narrative to push.

 

[serghei]

Neymar is a creative player. The reason he doesn't have many assists is that he is mostly playing wide. Out of all our attackers, I think he is playing in the most lateral position, the farthest away from goal. He is a key player in our attept to stretch teams out. He'll stay close to the sideline most of the time in our buildup, and only attacks the box to score. He is a wide striker these days, with flair and skill.

 

[Height18]

Neymar doesn't have much else going for him other than his finishing?! Loooooool.

If that's your opinion from strictly watching the games, then I have no idea what games you're watching.

It amazes me supposed Barca fans are still complaining about Neymar. Scored huge goals in numerous knockout rounds, including the final, and lit up la liga too. He's 23 years old and his SECOND SEASON in europe. He's a massive reason why we won the treble and your reasoning is because playing with Messi and Suarez somehow made it easy for him. Too funny. Not to mention many people swore to the heavens he would be lazy and not contribute defensively...oh how wrong they all were.

Anyone complaining about Neymar at this point are people that will never like him no matter what and complain just to complain.

Once again, turned 23 in february....yea...

Glad you mentioned that. Because its another false narrative that is sneaked in there from time to time, about others doing more or working harder.

Balls won:
[tw]620771017615654912[/tw]

 

[TornAndFrayed]

see, that's kind of what i'm talking about.

Apparently giving 10/10 to neymar's finishing and 6/10 to the rest is a blasphemy. Four years as a registered user here and i get accused of pushing a fake agenda (rofl), one notorious neymar fanboy gets excited(no comment), mr couter questions if i really am a barça fan .
All this when i've been careful to note that this is my personal impression from watching the game, that neymar's key role is indeed finishing and he's doing it perfectly. That's how low this thread is and has pretty much always been, fuck if i know. Cheers flavia for actually arguing and serghei for not attacking like a rabid dog.