11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

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JamDav1982

Senior Member
BBZ - why would you compare Barca and Real in times when they were not even challenging for the league?

You seem to say that the reason the team score more now is that there are more foreign players and bigger disparity in money than in the past.

Yet in those same rules should apply to comparing early and late 90s teams to the 2004/05/06 teams. Yet the that 2004/05/06 scored less on average.

The title winning teams of that time were amongst the lowest scoring of last twenty years so to compare them to the highest scoring of course there will be a big difference.

Real went from never scoring 83/84 goals before Ronaldo came to never scoring under 102 with him in team. While Barcas goals jumped by about 25 as soon as Messi came to the fore properly.

It is clear as day how much immediate difference Messi and Ronaldo made. Unless you think La Liga just suddenly got shit over night.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
BBZ - why would you compare Barca and Real in times when they were not even challenging for the league?

You seem to say that the reason the team score more now is that there are more foreign players and bigger disparity in money than in the past.

Yet in those same rules should apply to comparing early and late 90s teams to the 2004/05/06 teams. Yet the that 2004/05/06 scored less on average.

The title winning teams of that time were amongst the lowest scoring of last twenty years so to compare them to the highest scoring of course there will be a big difference.

Real went from never scoring 83/84 goals before Ronaldo came to never scoring under 102 with him in team. While Barcas goals jumped by about 25 as soon as Messi came to the fore properly.

It is clear as day how much immediate difference Messi and Ronaldo made. Unless you think La Liga just suddenly got shit over night.

I told you that according to my theory, bigger jump/differences between teams happens since 2004, 2005 and till today.
1991 vs 2004 as you ask, yes, teams were slightly richer in 2004 compared to their opponents than in 1994, but the biggest jump happened after that, which can be seen in a 2-horse race since 2005, and in more and more goals after a few years.

Anyway, I see that this argument how Barca and Real are scoring a lot because we have Messi and Cr7 doesn't go away, well, let's go to another country with a similar problem, Germany.
Who is their Messi? Mukker (Muller, lol)?
-- look at Bayern's goals in this century, how they were slightly raising over the years

Bundesliga, Bayern's league goals in this century:
2014: 94 goals
2013: 98 goals
2012: 77
2011: 81
2010: 72
2009: 71
2008: 68
2007: 55
2006: 67
2005: 75
2004: 70
2003: 70
2002: 65
2001: 62
2000: 73

-- from 2000 to 2010, the highest Bayern's numbers were: 75, 72, 71, 70 and 70
-- what happened in the last few years (in the same moment when Messi and Ronaldo also "exploded")?
= Bayern also exploded, lol
-- from a team who never managed to pass 75 Goals in 34 rounds (they are playing 4 games less than La liga teams), they jumped to:
= 81, 77, 98 and 94 in the last 4-5 years
-- so, each of the last 5 (4 Seasons plus the current one) Seasons had more Goals than ANY season from years 2000-2010.
-- this Season, Bayern is already at 77 Goals after 30 matches and since they are scoring around 2,5 Goals per match, let's say that they will score 8-10 goals till the end of the Season, and so, they will be at 85-87 goals again this Season

So, Barca's and Real's goals exploded in the last 5-6 Seasons.
People reply that it is because Messi and CR7 are too good.

But in the same time, Bayern's goals, without Messi and CR7 are improving more or less in the same ratio as Goals from Messi/CR7/Barca and Real.

So, I think that my question is perfectly reasonable:
= are we scoring more goals because of Messi and Ronaldo, or (as I am claiming), because in some countries rich just became too rich and they are way stronger than their league opponents than 5-10 Seasons ago, and this is why they are not winning 2:0 anymore, but more often 3:0 and 4:0
-- and because of that, the whole team, or some players are scoring more and more goals

Some may conclude from those goals that those players are just extreme goats.
Some others will say that those players are good, but not that good, and that more or less, even some other players on their place would score similar amounts of goals in those leagues were 1-2 top clubs are way richer/stronger than the opponents.

So, do you (or anyone) have an explanation why the same scenario is happening both in Spain and Germany?
Who is their Messi/Cr7 who is responsible for more Goals? Mukker, Mandzukic?
 
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Jadentheman

Active member
Until Neygoal starts doing ridiculous tricks that leads to goals and assists he isn't better than R10. He hasn't done much expressive skill these past seasons yet to show me be an even reach on par. Maybe it's pleasing people or taking safe at rather then risks(what Bernie wants) but it's the way it is. But he definitely has time to get to the level
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Until Neygoal starts doing ridiculous tricks that leads to goals and assists he isn't better than R10. He hasn't done much expressive skill these past seasons yet to show me be an even reach on par. Maybe it's pleasing people or taking safe at rather then risks(what Bernie wants) but it's the way it is. But he definitely has time to get to the level

I'd take zero flashy skills if it means 30+ goals per season.
 

StarLord

New member
Until Neygoal starts doing ridiculous tricks that leads to goals and assists he isn't better than R10. He hasn't done much expressive skill these past seasons yet to show me be an even reach on par. Maybe it's pleasing people or taking safe at rather then risks(what Bernie wants) but it's the way it is. But he definitely has time to get to the level

In terms of pure magic, no one is matching Ronaldinho anytime soon. Hell, not even Messi can match Dinho's spontaneity and artistry. But football is way more than that. It is also about efficiency, productivity, workrate, team-play, longevity and consistency. And in all of those departments, Messi pawns Ronaldinho completely.

So therefore, I am with sumlit on this:

I'd take zero flashy skills if it means 30+ goals per season.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I told you that according to my theory, bigger jump/differences between teams happens since 2004, 2005 and till today.
1991 vs 2004 as you ask, yes, teams were slightly richer in 2004 compared to their opponents than in 1994, but the biggest jump happened after that, which can be seen in a 2-horse race since 2005, and in more and more goals after a few years.

Anyway, I see that this argument how Barca and Real are scoring a lot because we have Messi and Cr7 doesn't go away, well, let's go to another country with a similar problem, Germany.
Who is their Messi? Mukker (Muller, lol)?
-- look at Bayern's goals in this century, how they were slightly raising over the years

Bundesliga, Bayern's league goals in this century:
2014: 94 goals
2013: 98 goals
2012: 77
2011: 81
2010: 72
2009: 71
2008: 68
2007: 55
2006: 67
2005: 75
2004: 70
2003: 70
2002: 65
2001: 62
2000: 73

-- from 2000 to 2010, the highest Bayern's numbers were: 75, 72, 71, 70 and 70
-- what happened in the last few years (in the same moment when Messi and Ronaldo also "exploded")?
= Bayern also exploded, lol
-- from a team who never managed to pass 75 Goals in 34 rounds (they are playing 4 games less than La liga teams), they jumped to:
= 81, 77, 98 and 94 in the last 4-5 years
-- so, each of the last 5 (4 Seasons plus the current one) Seasons had more Goals than ANY season from years 2000-2010.
-- this Season, Bayern is already at 77 Goals after 30 matches and since they are scoring around 2,5 Goals per match, let's say that they will score 8-10 goals till the end of the Season, and so, they will be at 85-87 goals again this Season

So, Barca's and Real's goals exploded in the last 5-6 Seasons.
People reply that it is because Messi and CR7 are too good.

But in the same time, Bayern's goals, without Messi and CR7 are improving more or less in the same ratio as Goals from Messi/CR7/Barca and Real.

So, I think that my question is perfectly reasonable:
= are we scoring more goals because of Messi and Ronaldo, or (as I am claiming), because in some countries rich just became too rich and they are way stronger than their league opponents than 5-10 Seasons ago, and this is why they are not winning 2:0 anymore, but more often 3:0 and 4:0
-- and because of that, the whole team, or some players are scoring more and more goals

Some may conclude from those goals that those players are just extreme goats.
Some others will say that those players are good, but not that good, and that more or less, even some other players on their place would score similar amounts of goals in those leagues were 1-2 top clubs are way richer/stronger than the opponents.

So, do you (or anyone) have an explanation why the same scenario is happening both in Spain and Germany?
Who is their Messi/Cr7 who is responsible for more Goals? Mukker, Mandzukic?

Bayern have not 'exploded' with goals the same way Barcelona and Madrid have with Messi and Ronaldo.

Again you try to count seasons in which Barca/Madrid and Bayern were not even challenging for title.

You have given no reasons whatsoever why the title teams of the mid 00s would be scoring less goals than the title teams of late 90s or the Cruyff Dream Team.

Messi and Ronaldo are repeating their goal scoring in europe.

Messi, Neymar and Suarez are showing to be amongst the top scorers at intl level also.
 

iceon

New member
It is easier to explain it numbers.
Let's say that, IMO, Messi is 100/100.
Cr7 is 90/100 etc. (in quality)

Now, my estimation, Ronnie was at 88 in 2004-05, and Etoo was at 90.
But Etoo was not "suitable" to be a Ballon'D'Or winner.

But in the upcoming Seasons, Ronnie improved to 95/100, and Etoo stayed at 90/100.
And then, Ronnie BOTH because of his improved displays plus because he was marketable, was picked to be Ballon D or.

But, my point is, even if Etoo would have improved to 95/100, and if Ronnie stayed at 88-90, Etoo still wouldn't win it.
Fifa would pick either Ronnie or would have found some random player from Europe/Brasil who performed well that Season and turn him into Fifa's Ballon D Or face.

So, Ronnie had perfect skills, plus he was marketable.
I am not saying that Ronnie's titles are undeserved.

Worst post I've read in a football forum ever. How do you come up with this amount of shit? Jesus, is it FIFA on playstation with those ratings? 90/100, 92/100. What are you even doing? Ronaldinho basically put this club back on the map after disappearing for a bit and basically set the winning foundation for coming years. If you've read Ferran Sorianos ''The ball doesn't go in by chance'' you'll see how important Ronaldinho was. Eto'o was nowhere near his level in any of those two years. Stop talking about revisionism and what else, when comparing those two's ability. Ronaldinho was on another planet for two seasons.
 

StarLord

New member
Bayern have not 'exploded' with goals the same way Barcelona and Madrid have with Messi and Ronaldo.

Again you try to count seasons in which Barca/Madrid and Bayern were not even challenging for title.

You have given no reasons whatsoever why the title teams of the mid 00s would be scoring less goals than the title teams of late 90s or the Cruyff Dream Team.

Messi and Ronaldo are repeating their goal scoring in europe.

Messi, Neymar and Suarez are showing to be amongst the top scorers at intl level also.


BBZ is also using for examples, the three mega-sides that everyone in the football world agrees are by far the best teams on the continent for the last 5-6 years or so.

Sure Barca/Bayern/Real will have increased their goal totals in recent seasons, because they have simply improved as teams and have reached the next level.
 
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