11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[Luftstalag14]

Apparently Neymars family told the brazilian enwspaper "El Globo" the story about United. This is to ensure that Neymar can get the maximum out of his new contract.
He would accept it in the end anyway, but until that is we will have lots of fun with rumors about him.
Guillem Balague in his article on YAHOO

Very wishy washy, a lot of speculations without citing sources.

 

[serghei]

Yup, Barcelona would have won 2 trebles and 25 trophies in a decade with, let's say, Alexis instead of Messi. Messi's just icing, not the cake.

It would've been weaker of course, but yes, I think so.

Take the 2011 team.

Valdes - very good
Alves - best RB in the world
Puyol - monster CB and huge leader
Abidal - world class
Pique - world class
Busquets - one of the best DMs ever
Xavi - midfield legend
Iniesta - better than Zidane by the time he will retire
Pedro - great player
Villa - one of the best strikers in the history of spanish football

That collection of players would have dominated Europe with or without Messi.

 

[Sumlit]

It would've been weaker of course, but yes, I think so.

Take the 2011 team.

Valdes - very good
Alves - best RB in the world
Puyol - monster CB and huge leader
Abidal - world class
Pique - world class
Busquets - one of the best DMs ever
Xavi - midfield legend
Iniesta - better than Zidane by the time he will retire
Pedro - great player
Villa - one of the best strikers in the history of spanish football

That collection of players would have dominated Europe with or without Messi.

Yes, like I said, Messi isn't a generational player that marks differences, the team was. Those teams would have just as well won trebles and multiple titles with Alexis instead.

 

[DonAK]

Yes. Barcelona would have dominated the World. Just add the GOAT Alexis.

 

[BBZ8800]

Why is it strange, I've always denied the idea that a single player makes the difference. This has nothing to do with Messi. Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Yaya Toure, Henry, Eto'o, Puyol etc. could have easily made the treble without Messi as well, because they are world class players and hall of famers on their own merit.

Messi was the element that made a brilliant team become a legendary team. But the team would've been brilliant without him as well, good enough to humiliate rivals and win trophies, just like Ronaldinho's Barcelona did back in 2005-2006.

I strongly disagree with you. There's a very clear reason why Barça have won 25 trophies since Messi's debut, while rm have only 10. And that's Messi. I really doubt Barça would have one treble, let alone 2, without him.

That team won trophies for 2 years and fell apart (yes, yes, people will blame Ronnie, girlfriends and parties).
The point is, we had and we will have awesome teams who will win some trophies and CLs every now and then.
But our eras (of domination) with those players lasted/will last 1-2-3 years and that's it.

With Messi, Barca is more or less the favorite in any CL edition for 10-15 years in a row.

Also, remove Messi and put any player in our team as his substitute, and our team doesn't look that special anymore.
Our Ney-Suarez-xx player-Iniesta-Raki isn't any better than Lucho-Pep-Figo-Rivaldo-Kluivert or Ronnie-Etoo-Guily-Xavi-Iniesta etc.

Remove Messi and you have only an awesome team of mortals, which can win a trophy, but which can also lost 4 years in a row in a CL semifinal.

Ney and Suarez are awesome, but they are Messi's little helpers.
With Messi, they are aliens, without him they are just a regular top3 team.

True, Messi without Ney and Suarez is not that good.
But also, Messi can turn even Barca without Neymar and Suarez into a Godlike team, while Ney and Suarez CAN'T turn any team without Messi into a Godlike team.

 

[Ini8]

In reality, all Messi did was rack up goals that Villa, Pedro and Alexis could've scored.

 

[BBZ8800]

It would've been weaker of course, but yes, I think so.

Take the 2011 team.

Valdes - very good
Alves - best RB in the world
Puyol - monster CB and huge leader
Abidal - world class
Pique - world class
Busquets - one of the best DMs ever
Xavi - midfield legend
Iniesta - better than Zidane by the time he will retire
Pedro - great player
Villa - one of the best strikers in the history of spanish football

That collection of players would have dominated Europe with or without Messi.

If Messi played in Real since 2006', then 3 Neymars, 3 Suarez's and 30 players from the golden La Masia together, wouldn't be able to stop Real from reaching their 14th or 15th CL title till now.

You can't beat Messi.
Our players like Ney, Suarez, Xavi, Iniesta are awesome, but Real and Bayern had equally good/awesome players and balanced teams over years.

What made the difference is Messi.
Not Xavi and Iniesta.

If someone pulls an Argentina example, again:
Argentina is so bad that even Messi alone can't help them

But put Messi in any of top 3-4-5 teams who are EQUALLY as good without him, and he will turn that ONE team into a Godlike team, while other teams will look like, well.. Real in the last 10 years.

They look like horrible losers with a bad president.
Lol, if Perez had Messi, he would be hailed as the greatest football president in a history, who won 4-5 CL titles in the last 10 years.

 

[Stric]

To be honest, Barca without Messi was the backbone of the incredible 08-12 Spain NT.

But still, I agree with Flavia. Messi won the 12-13 league pretty much by himself. We won games because even with our shit defense he managed to outscore the opponent on more occasions than I can think of.

 

[Vlom]

My post was a bit confusing, those are 2 different comparisons , Neymar VS Reus, and Suarez VS Benzema.. I didn't mean neymar is > to suarez.

PS : I agree with BBZ & Flavia obviously, how can anyone think that barça's supremacy in the last decade is due to anything else than the one and only comon denominator that was always and is still there.... Messi Messi Messi

 

[kollegah]

To be honest, Barca without Messi was the backbone of the incredible 08-12 Spain NT.

But still, I agree with Flavia. Messi won the 12-13 league pretty much by himself. We won games because even with our shit defense he managed to outscore the opponent on more occasions than I can think of.

messsi won cl 2011 and 2015 by himself.

2011= would have been eliminated against real madrid
2015= would have been eliminated against bayern munich

dont tell me pedro or villa or alexis would ahve scored the goals, leo scored.

all goals in these two games were sick, no other player would have scored even one of them

 

[DonAK]

To be honest, Barca without Messi was the backbone of the incredible 08-12 Spain NT.

But still, I agree with Flavia. Messi won the 12-13 league pretty much by himself. We won games because even with our shit defense he managed to outscore the opponent on more occasions than I can think of.

NT level a different beast altogether. More quality on club level. Which teams were truly good during that time? Spain and Germany. Two teams. Netherlands were a good collective unit, but they didn't have the individual players right at that level of Germany and Spain. Brazil and Argentina(apart from Messi and Masche? The less said about them the better. France? Collapsing.

At the same time during club level you had Barca, Real, Bayern, Inter, Chelsea, Man Utd, Dortmund etc. at different stages and at one stage you had 6 really top quality teams in Barca, Real, Bayern, Inter, Chelsea and Borussia Dortmund who could go on and win the CL.

At NT level, worldwide, you only had two teams stacked with that sort of talent, individually and collectivelly.

 

[Stric]

messsi won cl 2011 and 2015 by himself.

2011= would have been eliminated against real madrid
2015= would have been eliminated against bayern munich

dont tell me pedro or villa or alexis would ahve scored the goals, leo scored.

all goals in these two games were sick, no other player would have scored even one of them

Elimination stages are incomparable to a year-long league. When it comes to elimination, anyone who scores the deciding goal is the deciding factor. But in the league, you acquire points throughout the season. It's much more relevant if someone is the key element in many of those games than if someone scores a crucial goal in a deciding moment on one or two occasions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not downplaying Messi's importance. And I never said anything about the 2011 or 2015 CLs. All I wanted to say is that basically our team without Messi still made for a pretty incredible and hugely successful national team. And it's no coincidence. It wasn't only the players, but the style they brought from their club.

 

[JamDav1982]

messsi won cl 2011 and 2015 by himself.

2011= would have been eliminated against real madrid
2015= would have been eliminated against bayern munich

dont tell me pedro or villa or alexis would ahve scored the goals, leo scored.

all goals in these two games were sick, no other player would have scored even one of them

No player ever wins things by himself. Just look at Messi with Argentina when he doesnt have the supporting cast at Barca he is a more limited player.

Absolutely absurd to claim he won the CL 2015 by himself for example. Many players like Neymar and Suarez played huge parts in that win.

 

[Flavia]

What about Xavi? What about Iniesta? I could say the same about Iniesta. There's a very clear reason why Barca has won 25 trophies since Iniesta's debut, while RM have only 10.

I'd give you that if Barcelona + Ramos and Casillas hadn't won the World Cup in 2010. But they did, proving a generation of players playing the football they learned in La Masia is bigger than just one player, whoever that player is.

So, I strongly disagree with you as well.

Remember, Spain, Euro 2008, WC 2010, and Euro 2012 winner. Without Messi.

Nt football and club football are different. Spain had Barça AND rm finest players. Take out rm players and that dominance wouldn't happen either.
Barça would probably be a strong team, something like rm still managed to be all those years. But I very much doubt a treble would happen, or the dominance that having Messi made possible.

Really weird to downplay Messi's importance, of all players. Funny thing is all the players you mentioned would also disagree with you.

Edit: just saw you think Barça would have the same success with Alexis, instead of Messi, lol. That's really hilarious.

 

[Stric]

Messi is definitely not the icing on the cake. He's the baker.