11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[BBZ8800]

Someone shove this up that Serbs throat and tell him to shut up!

According to those stats:
Messi 176 passes to Suárez this season.
Messi --> Neymar 250
Suárez --> Messi 173
Suárez --> Neymar 122
Neymar --> Messi 329
Neymar --> Suárez 148

Messi 426 passes in total
Suarez 295 passes in total
Neymar 477 passes in total

= Neymar is actually a better passer (or at least, he does it more often to a front duo/trio) than Messi.
Which totally doesn't make sense.

So:
1. he either gets a lot of balls, and then makes a lot of easy passes which doesn't lead to shots on Goal
2. or he tries a lot of attempts of deadly through balls, but most of them are bad passes, and this is why he has only a few assists for a Goal in the whole Season, and he is much weaker in that area than Messi, for example
3. or: he attempts a lot of passes in total, and he also created 100s of 1 vs 1 situations (versus a keeper) for our attackers, but they are just missing all those chances he created

Anyway, THIS post is NOT attack on Neymar, but an example how anyone can do/create anything with stats.
If you take only assists for a goal, Neymar isn't that good this Season.
If you take the total amount of all passes among the top trio (both easy passes and deadly assists), Neymar is better than Messi.

(I mean, we all do these "tricks" with stats. So, you have to be cautious with any statistics)

 

[JamDav1982]

One thing that number of passes does show is it totally dispels this ideas that Neymar has issues of being 'selfish'.

If anything he is too unselfish.

 

[Flavia]

If you take the total amount of all passes among the top trio (both easy passes and deadly assists), Neymar is better than Messi.

How would you get to that conclusion? The only thing those numbers say to me, is that Neymar passes too much to Messi.
Which I knew he did already. He always want to setup Messi, and he should work on that, be less of a fanboy.

 

[anguy]

Neymar passing stats on whoscored : http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/. Considering his pass % - only Bravo, Munir and Suarez are worse - and Suarez has twice as much assists and more key passes.

 

[JamDav1982]

Neymar passing stats on whoscored : http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/. Considering his pass % - only Bravo, Munir and Suarez are worse - and Suarez has twice as much assists and more key passes.

Those pass % stats are misleading though and Messi is only marginally better and he is best passer in team by far.

If you ask the front three to take risks and play on the break you will get those stats. In comparison to rest of team that get much more time on ball as teams sit back and are asked to take much less risks.

 

[anguy]

Those pass % stats are misleading though and Messi is only marginally better and he is best passer in team by far.

If you ask the front three to take risks and play on the break you will get those stats. In comparison to rest of team that get much more time on ball as teams sit back and are asked to take much less risks.

Uhm, you should look at the context - Messi has 3 times more assists, his average pass length is 2.5 - Neymar's is 0.9. He also has 2.5 key passes compared to Ney's 1.4. It's clear from these numbers Messi (and to lesser extent Suarez) have lower pass % than other players, because they make a lot of risky passes. On the other hand Neymar doesn't make so many risky passes and still his pass % is not very good.

I think those stats mirror reality pretty well. For example the best % passer in the team is Sergi Roberto, but you clearly see that he has no assists, few key passes and low average pass length. Conclusion - his passing % is good, because he plays very conservatively.

 

[JamDav1982]

Uhm, you should look at the context - Messi has 3 times more assists, his average pass length is 2.5 - Neymar's is 0.9. He also has 2.5 key passes compared to Ney's 1.4. It's clear from these numbers Messi (and to lesser extent Suarez) have lower pass % than other players, because they make a lot of risky passes. On the other hand Neymar doesn't make so many risky passes and still his pass % is not very good.

I think those stats mirror reality pretty well. For example the best % passer in the team is Sergi Roberto, but you clearly see that he has no assists, few key passes and low average pass length. Conclusion - his passing % is good, because he plays very conservatively.

Messi is much better passer I said that, Messi is also the main playmaker of the team but still has only 4 players with worse pass accuracy than him because of where he plays....further up the park.

So % percentage means next to nothing compared to other players in the team bar the attacking players and 80% pass rate is good anyway.

Neymar is a great passer of ball, will never be on Messi level for it but will get better and better.

 

[Kerrybai]

Based on what? How many assists he has? What about his backheel passes? His 1-2s in tight spaces? In manchester city first leg, he did 2'great balls to suarez, but no one said anything because suarez missed it

Based on what I have seen Messi and Suarez to a lesser extent have better vision, for example that Messi assist to Suarez last game. Messi sees those passes every game and executes them, Neymar from the other side rarely finds Suarez in these cases. His vision and passing are just not up there in that regard... I'm not hating on him, I love the guy but this is not where his strengths are.

 

[JamDav1982]

Based on what I have seen Messi and Suarez to a lesser extent have better vision, for example that Messi assist to Suarez last game. Messi sees those passes every game and executes them, Neymar from the other side rarely finds Suarez in these cases. His vision and passing are just not up there in that regard... I'm not hating on him, I love the guy but this is not where his strengths are.

Passing is one of his strengths and it will get better and better.

He has had some great passes this season that players have missed.

 

[anguy]

Messi is much better passer I said that, Messi is also the main playmaker of the team but still has only 4 players with worse pass accuracy than him because of where he plays....further up the park.

So % percentage means next to nothing compared to other players in the team bar the attacking players and 80% pass rate is good anyway.

Passing % MEANS something when combined with other stats - from Messi's combined passing stats you clearly see he is a playmaker, like you said. His success rate is relatively low because he attempts lot of high risk high reward passes, like throughballs. From Neymar's all combined passing stats you just see he's not very good passer.
Suarez is something between them - and that fits reality too he often does great one two and then stupidly loses ball. But he is better passer than Neymar.

 

[JamDav1982]

Passing % MEANS something when combined with other stats - from Messi's combined passing stats you clearly see he is a playmaker, like you said. His success rate is relatively low because he attempts lot of high risk high reward passes, like throughballs. From Neymar's all combined passing stats you just see he's not very good passer.
Suarez is something between them - and that fits reality too he often does great one two and then stupidly loses ball. But he is better passer than Neymar.

Messi's better pass percentage also helps that he drops deep and dictates play with simple passes, exchanging with Busi etc which Neymar rarely ever does.

There is nothing in Neymars stats that say he is a poor passer. He is a very good passer other than tries to find Messi too much.

 

[BBZ8800]

One thing that number of passes does show is it totally dispels this ideas that Neymar has issues of being 'selfish'.

If anything he is too unselfish.

Anguy already explained, these stats don't lead to that conclusion.

A pure number of passes, without stats of attempted dribbles, shots on goal and similar when a player gets the ball, don't say anything.
For example, Ney/xx player can have 400 passes to his teammates (compared to 350 from his attacking partners).
But if he actually had 800 received passes, lost balls 200 times through a dribble, attempted 200 shots on goal, and passed the ball 400 times, then 400 passes and 400 actions which are NOT passes tell a different story.
(I am not saying that these are his real numbers. But I am saying that these stats doesn't say anything about him being selfish or not without some other informations)

How would you get to that conclusion? The only thing those numbers say to me, is that Neymar passes too much to Messi.
Which I knew he did already. He always want to setup Messi, and he should work on that, be less of a fanboy.

My bad. Not better (player).
Better passer/assistant/creator.

These numbers say that Ney passes more to his attacking teammates than Suarez and Messi.
Since they are players who are shooting the most, these numbers may imply that Neymar is our main creator.

Again, he is not.
So, stats are misleading again.

Those pass % stats are misleading though and Messi is only marginally better and he is best passer in team by far.

If you ask the front three to take risks and play on the break you will get those stats. In comparison to rest of team that get much more time on ball as teams sit back and are asked to take much less risks.

You are right in this part also, that a front trio will attempt more risky passes than Busi, Bartra or Roberto.
So, 90% of successful passes by Xavi, and 90% of someone from the front three are not the same, surely.

Uhm, you should look at the context - Messi has 3 times more assists, his average pass length is 2.5 - Neymar's is 0.9. He also has 2.5 key passes compared to Ney's 1.4. It's clear from these numbers Messi (and to lesser extent Suarez) have lower pass % than other players, because they make a lot of risky passes. On the other hand Neymar doesn't make so many risky passes and still his pass % is not very good.

I think those stats mirror reality pretty well. For example the best % passer in the team is Sergi Roberto, but you clearly see that he has no assists, few key passes and low average pass length. Conclusion - his passing % is good, because he plays very conservatively.

But you are right also.
Comparing passes from Roberto and Messi is wrong.
Comparing the % accuracy, number of assists, dribbles and goals from the front trio=that makes more sense.

In those numbers, Ney surely won't be our man with the best passes.

(Again, this is not an attack on Ney, but on stats in general. And some of them may imply that a play XX or YY is the best in something, if taken out of the context, as explained in this example:
Messi 176 passes to Suárez this season.
Messi --> Neymar 250
Suárez --> Messi 173
Suárez --> Neymar 122
Neymar --> Messi 329
Neymar --> Suárez 148

These stats say virtually nothing without a context and 100s of other valuable informations.

 

[JamDav1982]

BBZ you say 'anything can be drawn from stats' then go on to say they prove what you think.

Neymar is far from a poor passer he is a very good passer and keeps ball well.

Also I dont need you to try and validate where I am right and wrong. Thanks anyway.

 

[BBZ8800]

Messi's better pass percentage also helps that he drops deep and dictates play with simple passes, exchanging with Busi etc which Neymar rarely ever does.

Messi drops deep and that increases his % of successful passes in total.
But Messi still has 100s of asists, right?

Ney has a few assists in the whole Season.

So, there must be some differences between Ney's and Messi's passes.
Again, this is not an attack.
Saying that Messi is a better passer than someone is not actually an insult, lol.

But Messi is a much better passer IN BARCA, than Ney.

There is nothing in Neymars stats that say he is a poor passer. He is a very good passer other than tries to find Messi too much.

Except that he has the fewest amount of assists out of the front trio.
That is all.

Again, that shouldn't be insult.
No one is better than Messi.

So, Ney's only "sin" is that he is weaker than Suarez in that area, according to ASSISTS stats.

 

[JamDav1982]

No having less assists than the best passer of the ball in the world does not prove he is a poor passer in any way.

Neymar is weaker than Suarez in assists as tries less risky passes and is further away from Messi.

All three are very good passers.