11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

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BBZ8800

Senior Member
Doing what you always do; turning the original argument into something else and conveniently ignore everything else.
I'm done here.

You original argumnet was that Ney is the best because of a XX stat.
I offered a stat YY whic shows differently (even though a 2nd stat is way more relevant).

And now I am turning a conversation into something else.

It is the same as if you say that a sky is green
I say: no. The sky is blue. Look at the photo and a proof.

You run away and say that I am twisting stats.
Insane stuff, Tricky

Yes, I turned a conversation from: Ney is the best winger in the world into something else.
Into an objective world where he is leveled with Cr7 and Bale when you sum 100s of different measurable and unmeasurable stats more objectively.
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Not a bad return from someone who's spent three seasons with us and is 24 years old.


CmnA7Y8UIAAJrHf.jpg:large
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
You original argumnet was that Ney is the best because of a XX stat.
I offered a stat YY whic shows differently (even though a 2nd stat is way more relevant).

And now I am turning a conversation into something else.

It is the same as if you say that a sky is green
I say: no. The sky is blue. Look at the photo and a proof.

You run away and say that I am twisting stats.
Insane stuff, Tricky

Yes, I turned a conversation from: Ney is the best winger in the world into something else.
Into an objective world where he is leveled with Cr7 and Bale when you sum 100s of different measurable and unmeasurable stats more objectively.

You reject other people stats and use your own. Makes you no different.

The goals/assist stat takes no account of a players role in the team and as said many times puts Ronaldo above Messi.

How can you claim Messi is better than Ronaldo when the stats you use to compare players point to that not being the case?
 

Interlop

Member
The problem, BBZ, is that our Golden Generation of La Masia players is over. We've been very lucky to have Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Messi, Puyol etc. for free emerging from our academy. I understand what are you problems with Neymar, but you have to understand that we cannot compete with the likes of Bayern and Real just by pairing Messi with 10 average players in our squad and it doesn't matter they are from La-Masia or not.
And what did you expect from him exactly? Did you expect he's gonna bench Messi or he is going to surpass him? Dude has already better stats than a lot of legends who played at Barcelona, cut him some slack. Plus, Neymar is already worth more than 100M, so in the end he costs more than what we payed for him.
 
I

instinct

Guest
Ok, finally a different kind of a post.
In short, these are my current problems with Ney:
1. he is the most expensive transfer ever. Yet, his plays aren't as good as his transfer was (he is the most expensive signing, yet his plays are far from the 1st place)
So, this is one of my problems with him in terms of invested money and return of investment
About when people say: but we won a treble with him.
This is how I see it:
Since Messi emerged in 2006:
-- we won 3 Cls in 8 years without Ney (2006-2014)
-- and 5 La ligas in 8 years before Ney

With Ney:
-- 1 CL in 3 years
-- 2 La ligas in 3 years

So, some people are acting as if Ney brought our team to a level never seen before, if you get me.
While, we were as equally as dominant WITH or WITHOUT Ney both in La liga and in a CL since 2006 when GOAT emerged.

So, we were winning the same ratio of La ligas and CLs even with Pedro as our starting LW, if you get me.
So, when someone says that Ney brought us a CL in 2015 and 2 La ligas in 2015 and 2016, that would probably happen with any random (good) winger in our team.

So, my problem is that we paid 100+ Millions for his transfer and god knows how many millions for wages, and our team is more or less the same as before him.
So, my argument is that our team would probably win the same amount of trophies with some less expensive guy like Reus, Griez etc.
Plus, we would have money for players on other positions.
This is a Pogba (or other Cms) argument.

2. about Pogba, he is not the same as Ney
Ney is the biggest celebrity and a guy with too many off field interests since Beckham and CR7.
Pogba is a little kid for him in celebrity area.

3. Ney is the most hot and cold leader or a key player of Barca in the last 10-15 years, in my opinion.

4. and a problem with wages where he will now ruin our wage structure

Plus, for the end, I have a problem with people who have posts that he is the 2nd best player in the world and who totally lose nerves if you reply something differently (like my stats with goals+assists)

My further problem with Ney is that in my opinion, I don't think that he will improve his play.
And since I am not convinced by his impact (especially in: invested money plus a return in trophies from Ney), then since I am not happy with how much he is "improving" our team, I am scared that it will be way worse very soon since he may start to decline physically (those scientific facts), plus if his celebrity persona will grow, his motivation will be even weaker, which means that he will be hot and cold even more.

So, in short, my key problems:
1. I don't think that he returned as much as we invested in him (100m transfer plus new insane wages which will ruin our team)
2. plus, my prediction, he will be even weaker player very soon, because of a physical decline and his declining motivation

So, it is not the same as with Pogba.
Even though, I could survive without Pogba, if we buy 2 Cms like Gomez for that money, for example.



I don't know where to start.

When talking about ROI in football you need to give a more comprehensive argument on why he wasn't worth the investment. The only reason you mentioned was his contribution on the pitch. Where did you mention brand value, being a reference point for young footballers around the world and potential sponsorship opportunities for the club (*cough* the new Nike deal)?
I don't know if he is worth the investment as I don't know the exact figure nor can I quantify the value he has for the club off the pitch but I expect you to make a more comprehensive assessment when talking about his ROI.

I won't comment on your statement regarding his contribution to the titles we won as they're just baseless asssumptions. I'm sure everyone here agrees that Neymar was incredibly valuable and a crucial part of the treble winning team. Saying that the team would've been equally as good with inferior players is just pointless. Could the team that won the sextuple have been just as good with Larsson instead of Henry because the latter only managed to win one CL in 3 years at the club while Larsson won one CL in 2 years at the club?

Also, what is your comparison with Messi supposed to prove? We've won 6 major titles since 2013. Do you want to blame it on Neymar that we failed to win the CL in 2013 and 2016?

With Ney:
-- 1 CL in 3 years
-- 2 La ligas in 3 years

How is that bad? How can you blame Neymar for not winning more titles since 2013? How can this be a legit argument? It's absolutely ludicrous.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
So, BBZ can I ask you a question? Who do you think was the best player between Suarez, Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Bale, Benzema? And what criteria did you use to come to this conclusion?

A good question, but very debatable.

The best player should be a mixture of awesome skills, but also with an end product and some trophies behind him.

Imagine a player with the best skills, but he never scores or make assists.
Or his team never wins trophies.

On the other hand, if you have a player with weaker skills, like 90%, but he scores 20 goals (compared to a first guy with 0 goals), plus he always delivers in finals and his team is winning trophies.

Messi:
-- 100% skills, awesome end product, he delivers trophies
Cr7:
-- 80% skills, awesome end product, delivers key trophies
Suarez:
-- 80% skills, awesome end product, delivers key trophies
Bale:
-- 90% skills, good end product, delivers trophies
Benz:
-- 80% skills, very good end product, delivers trophies
Ney:
-- 90% skills, his end product could be better, delivers trophies

So, you see, since all these 6 players have all needed skills, I just can't rate Neymar as better than some other guys, just because he nutmegs players and has better dribbles sometimes.
On a highest level, for me an end product and the highest prizes like CLs are what matters the most.

So, in the last 3 years:
Cr7 and Bale delivered more than our guys because of 2 Cls.
And among our 3 guys, Messi and Suarez delivered more.

But since Messi is Messi, if you ask me about the last 3 years:
1. Messi
2. Cr7
3. Bale
4. Suarez
5. Benz
6. Neymar

If we want to give more weight/importance to 2 La ligas, then:
1. Messi
2. Cr7
3. Suarez
4. Bale
5. Benz/Ney

What are you saying his transfer fee was?

His new contract wont 'ruin the team'. It makes it stronger.

Transfer fee
1. money to santos
2. money to his dad
3. money to DIS
4. penalties after a transfer, paid on court by Barca
5. new penalties to DIS, signed in Ney's renewed contract where DIS says that 40m paid to his dad are a part of a transfer fee, so DIS asks now additional 17M fee to them
Barca is offering 7m. So, we will pay additional 7 or up to 17m for Neymar's transfer in this year.
6. money paid for the first option on Santos's players which is only a cheating and that is actually money paid for Neymar

So, you see, if the original fee was 80-90 Millions, it has climbed up to 110-120 Millions in this year.
So, Neymar is in reality the highest paid player ever.
This is my problem about money paid for him and his return of that investment, which imo, is not worth all that money.

Before someone says: but he is the best LW.
Well, imagine if Verratti costs 200 Millions.
Ok, he is the best.
But if he costs 200M, and we can buy 4 players for 50+50+50+50 Millions, then Verratti is NOT worth 200 Millions.
He is good, but not THAT (200m) good.
The same is with Ney in my eyes. He is good, but not 120m good+insane wages.

About wages, other key players like Messi and Suarez will now ask for higher wages because of Ney's new wages.
Then the board will give them new contracts.
Then other guys will ask higher wages also (Busi, Ini, Raki etc).

Higher wages mean higher expenses and that means less money for transfers of new players.
So, to some extent, each million paid for a renovation of Ney, Messi and other guys is less Millions for a new RB, a new LB, a new CB, a new CM etc.

If Ney, Messi and Suarez all have wages 10+10+10 Millions, then you will have, let's say 80M for transfers in the next summer.
If Ney's wages go to 20M, now you have only 70m for transfers in the next season.
If Messi and Suarez now ask for 20m also, now we'll have only 50m for transfers next summer.

If Busi, Ini and Raki now ask 8M instead of 5m (example), then our transfer money next summer drops further from 50 m to 47, 44 and 41 m after 3 renewals (Ini, Busi, Raki).

So, you see, it is a domino effect.
Ney's renewal will strengthen our team in terms that we will keep an awesome player, but when other players will ask for a renovation, then Ney's renewal will actually cause a domino effect and a drop in transfer money available from 80m to 40-ish M.

So, you see, more or less, Ney's renewal and domino effect afterwards, is weakening our team and leaving us with less funds for a CB, RB, LB, CM and a 4th striker.

So, one more time, I am NOT happy with the amount of money invested in Ney's transfer and wages, compared with consequences on our other players and a future transfer money.
And then when you add that his end product is weaker than Benz's, Bale's, Cr7's, Messi's, Suarez's, then I don't think that my whining about Ney and all this money invested in him are totally unreasonable.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
The reason for Neymar getting a big contract is because that is what his market value is. Other teams were willing to pay close to 200m for him and higher wages.

The reason for this is the insane money now in football and that is the reason Messi will get a better contract.

You try to lay at the door of Ney the high wages at Barca as if his greed is the cause of it.

Just so lame and predictable.

Your 'domino effect' is not accurate and the likes of Messi will want a contract on par or better than the best players in world regardless if Ney at club or not.
 
I

instinct

Guest
So, in the last 3 years:
Cr7 and Bale delivered more than our guys because of 2 Cls.

But since Messi is Messi, if you ask me about the last 3 years:
1. Messi
2. Cr7
3. Bale
4. Suarez
5. Benz
6. Neymar

I'm done with his thread.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
i have to say BBZ, i got a hearty laugh out of bale being above suarez and neymar. cristiano is arguable but bale is generally injured half the season and has 8 CL goals in his 3 seasons with madrid, including 0 in the last campaign and 2 in the 14/15 campaign. i think you're being a prisoner of the moment of bale's team being in the semis of the euro.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
These arguments against Neymar get worse and worse and so all over the place it is unreal.

Bale been better than Neymar.....wow.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Dude has already better stats than a lot of legends who played at Barcelona, cut him some slack. Plus, Neymar is already worth more than 100M, so in the end he costs more than what we payed for him.

This point arrives each 2-3 Months on Ney's topic.

In short, Barca and Real were worth like 100M in 2005.
Getafe was worth 5 Millions.

Today, Barca and Real are worth 500 Millions.
Getafe is worth 10 Millions.
So, top teams are much richer than 10-15 years ago.

So, Barca with Ronnie was winning 2:0 against Getafes.
Barca and Real in 2015 are winning 6:0 on average against the same opponents.

That doesn't mean that Ney is better than Ronnie, but that Barca had 10 shots per match in 2005 against Getafe, while today we have 20 shots.

So, no, Ney is not better than those Barca's legends.
He and every current player just have way more shots than guys back then.
Ronnie scored 7 goals in a title winning season in 2005.
But it is a blasphemy to compare Ronnie with Ney.

La liga 2005:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_La_Liga

Barca 73 goals, Real 71 goals, total=144 goals

La liga 2015:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_La_Liga

2005: 73+71=144
2006: 80+70, total=150
2015: Barca 110 goals, Real 118, total=228 goals
2016: Barca 112, Real 110, total=222

You see how many things are wrong in this topic...

By the way, this time you used stats this time. So, this time stats are good? (if you get me)

So, when Bale, Benz and CR7 are better than Ney=stats are not good
When Ney has better stats than Ronaldinho (even though it makes zero sense to compare two different eras)=now stats mean something?
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
This point arrives each 2-3 Months on Ney's topic.

In short, Barca and Real were worth like 100M in 2005.
Getafe was worth 5 Millions.

Today, Barca and Real are worth 500 Millions.
Getafe is worth 10 Millions.
So, top teams are much richer than 10-15 years ago.

So, Barca with Ronnie was winning 2:0 against Getafes.
Barca and Real in 2015 are winning 6:0 on average against the same opponents.

That doesn't mean that Ney is better than Ronnie, but that Barca had 10 shots per match in 2005 against Getafe, while today we have 20 shots.

So, no, Ney is not better than those Barca's legends.
He and every current player just have way more shots than guys back then.

La liga 2005:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_La_Liga

Barca 73 goals, Real 71 goals, total=145 goals

La liga 2015:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_La_Liga

2005: 73+71=144
2006: 80+70, total=150
2015: Barca 110 goals, Real 118, total=228 goals
2016: Barca 112, Real 110, total=222

You see how many things are wrong in this topic...

By the way, this time you used stats this time. So, this time stats are good? (if you get me)

So, when Bale, Benz and CR7 are better than Ney=stats are not good
When Ney has better stats than Ronaldinho (even though it makes zero sense to compare to different eras)=now stats mean something?

Here we go with the 'stat padding' la liga argument.

That argument hits at the achievements of Messi more than anyone else.

I have asked you this before but you wont answer BBZ - How many goals should Barca score this season to show they are the best attack ever?

You argue as if the defences in 2005 and early 00s were super strong throughout La Liga....Real Madrid were up at top of table playing crap like Raul Bravo and Woodgate.
 

Trickykid

Active member
Out of fun, Instinct and Tricky, can you please rank your top6 out of MSN and BBC?

Do me a favor, please.



Messi, please, also, give me top6.
[MENTION=20103]Flavia[/MENTION] also
Thanks

Nah, I ran away because of your superior arguments, remember?
 
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