2011 CL Final: FC Barcelona - Manchester United FC 3-1 - Champions!

[dalitis8]

United cant win against Barca in an open game. So the question is, can they park a bus better than Madrid, Inter or Chelsea?

United will try and press high up the field (but not as high as in the first 20mns in Rome) and unleash their pacy wingers from the wings. I also reckon that they will try and man-mark Lionel Messi (Fletcher in all probability)

It is true, that we have not been very good lately, but when it really mattered, we were pretty amazing against Real Madrid in the 1st leg. Now, with 2 weeks and more to rest and relax and prepare for this the most important game in 2 years, I seriously suspect, that Barcelona will in all probability, present a different picture in the London final.

Another reason for optimism for us, is that we will have our full-strength starting XI, for the first time in ages (like we played against Mou's Madrid in the November Clasico)

 

[Unbiased United]

Except that Barca has won the most trophies in recent years, scored the most goals, has the best player in the world and is considered by most neutral observers as the best team.

First point, No they haven't. Your other points (and this is what you don't understand here) is your opinion, NOT fact. They might have scored more goals, yet many would argue the lesser teams in LL are easier to beat than the lesser teams in the PL.

It doesn't matter what I say, some people will always blindly claim everything about your team is better than everyone else's.

So, it boils down to this. If Barca win, I will be the first to hold my hands up and admit 'ok, you guys Barca can now rightly be called the best in Europe'. But if United win, I'm going to take great pleasure in listening to the excuses some of you guys will obviously come up with, rather than just giving credit where it is due.

Whoever wins this is the best in Europe (It couldn't be anymore black and white than that). Its only a one off game, but if your players can't raise their game for an occasion like this, then they don't deserve to be called the best (and that goes for both teams)....its that simple.

But of course you will think differently because you know best. And before anyone says '...well you think you know best'. I don't.... thats why I'm very reasonably saying lets wait and find out before coming out with some of these stupid claims.

 

[IrvDizzle]

Nice graphic. Can't believe I could miss the match due to wedding.

I found a bar close to my friend's wedding hall that day and I'm going to be late. If this game goes to penalties then I'm going to be super late.

 

[Ryan_Cule]

You won`t get late . United will play through the wings and will beat us within 90 minutes.

 

[Unbiased United]

unbiased united -

There is something you really need to understand - this Barcelona team is THE best in the world. That is not a fact as obviously that depends on people's opinion however there are VERY VERY FEW people who would argue with that point. And when such an overwhelming majority of people know/think something then although it is not officially a fact it is generally accepted to be.

And I'm not talking about Barcelona fans saying this, nearly the whole footballing world (professionals, managers, players, reporters, commentators etc) agree on this point and over the last few years the question has gone from 'Are Barcelona the best team in the world'? to 'Are Barcelona the best club team of all time'?

And you keep saying they've acheived the same thing so far this year, but that is completely untrue. Here is a copy and paste of a post I made on this subject a couple of weeks ago:

I am not disputing Man Utd's quality, as they really are a very good team but I really think if you look at it objectively then you'll see how they're not really on the same level overall as this Barca team, believed by many to be THE best club team of all time.

And yes, you've won 17 out of 18 home matches (we've won 16/18) but you've won 5 out of 18 away matches (we've won 13/16 away matches).

And I fully agree, that despite a very shaky start and problems with Rooney etc that Man Utd have really hit their stride and are deserved league winners this year, however their season can't really be seriously compared to Barca's - who are on 91 points with 3 games to go, who have scored 91 goals while conceding 19, who destroyed the most expensive team ever assembled in the history of football 5-0 in probably the best ever single team performance (whilst starting 8 academy players), who had 3 of those academy players crowned the world's best, 2nd best, and 3rd best players, who are in their second final in three years (losing out by one goal the other year), who will be crowned league champions for the third year in a row, I could go on but you get the point...

You keep saying we just say this because we are Barcelona fans but that's just not true, many many people say this (and as I said they are respected professionals) not fans.

But who says this Man Utd team is the best in the world? Nevermind the best of all time? Practically nobody.

And in my opinion, this MU team is vastly underrated however they are NOT on the same overall level as Barcelona.

I accept your opinion, of course I do.

But you can't see that in order to be called the best team in the world they need to beat United in the CL final. If they can't they are NOT the best in the world.

The best can raise their game when it matters, if they fail to do that in the final and lose, They are not the best. And anyone who thinks differently is obviously nothing but a blind fan.....

 

[FCBarca]

Nice graphic. Can't believe I could miss the match due to wedding.

Laptop & WiFi, gotta be...Fortunately/unfortunately, I'll actually be in London for a wedding but this weekend as opposed to next...Don't know if I should be happy or crying

 

[XaviMessiGirl]

To be fair, yes we have won way way more away from home than they have, but honestly the mid table type teams in EPL are a hell of a lot more challenging than the mid table La Liga teams, at least right now. You are far more likely to see an upset in EPL than you are in La Liga because there is more competition. There are some of the best players in the world in La Liga but the problem is they are spread in only two teams.

Anyway though this isn't meant to be a thread for comparison between the two leagues.

 

[Pitbull2k4]

First point, No they haven't. Your other points (and this is what you don't understand here) is your opinion, NOT fact. They might have scored more goals, yet many would argue the lesser teams in LL are easier to beat than the lesser teams in the PL.

It doesn't matter what I say, some people will always blindly claim everything about your team is better than everyone else's.

So, it boils down to this. If Barca win, I will be the first to hold my hands up and admit 'ok, you guys Barca can now rightly be called the best in Europe'. But if United win, I'm going to take great pleasure in listening to the excuses some of you guys will obviously come up with, rather than just giving credit where it is due.

Whoever wins this is the best in Europe (It couldn't be anymore black and white than that). Its only a one off game, but if your players can't raise their game for an occasion like this, then they don't deserve to be called the best (and that goes for both teams)....its that simple.

But of course you will think differently because you know best. And before anyone says '...well you think you know best'. I don't.... thats why I'm very reasonably saying lets wait and find out before coming out with some of these stupid claims.

You can easily claim subjectivity but there is also such a thing as intersubjectivity. Combine Barca's success with the fact that nearly every unbiased football professional (commentator, manager, columnist, you name it) agrees that Barca is the best current team, then I will feel comfortable claiming it to be true outside of my personal biased opinion. If you do not agree, who do you think is the best current team, using trophies, goals, players and majority opinion?

And again you say we should wait for the final. When someone claims Barca -should- win this, you say "anything can happen wait for the final'. When someone says Barca is the best, you say "not yet wait for the final". Maybe you should refrain yourself from posting in a pre-match discussion chat if you think these matters should be discussed post-match?

I feel as if I have to post a huge disclaimer after every word I type with you. Ok let me rephrase. Barca is the best current team in the world (and by that I mean using current statistics and performances, any current perception can be changed by future matches, for the full warning please refer to addendum 3.11 in your disclaimer)

 

[XaviMessiGirl]

I accept your opinion, of course I do.

But you can't see that in order to be called the best team in the world they need to beat United in the CL final. If they can't they are NOT the best in the world.

The best can raise their game when it matters, if they fail to do that in the final and lose, They are not the best. And anyone who thinks differently is obviously nothing but a blind fan.....

Let me tell you first that I'm really not meaning to sound arrogant, and well I hope you can tell from my previous posts in this thread that I'm not.

But even the best team in the world can have an off day, and if that day is the day of the CL final then that's what's gonna happen. That's the one thing I don't like about the final (in CL and other competitions) is that it's only one leg. It'd be much easier to judge who the better team is over two legs, home and away.

Also, Inter won last year but was anyone calling them the best team in the world (besides maybe their own fans)? No, they were maybe calling Mourinho the best coach in the world, but that's it. And it became obvious this season after Mourinho left and was replaced by two coaches who aren't as tactically aware. Same players mostly, only difference was the coach. Yes tactics and coaching style help make a team great and successful but that should not be the only thing that does, the players should prove themselves able to be called the greatest of their own accord.

 

[Unbiased United]

To be fair, yes we have won way way more away from home than they have, but honestly the mid table type teams in EPL are a hell of a lot more challenging than the mid table La Liga teams, at least right now. You are far more likely to see an upset in EPL than you are in La Liga because there is more competition. There are some of the best players in the world in La Liga but the problem is they are spread in only two teams.

Anyway though this isn't meant to be a thread for comparison between the two leagues.

This is part of my arguement.

The EPL teams have really improved this season (I don't mean the big names, but the smaller teams), making it a very tough league to win. There have been very few teams getting well beaten this season, and thats why its impossible to comapare United's and Barcelona's domestic success (i,e goals, points etc). Both teams have done enough to quite comfortably win their respective leagues, and both have made it to the final.....I really think (and not just as a united fan) that it is going to be so much closer than many people here are claiming....not long now to find out.

Let me tell you first that I'm really not meaning to sound arrogant, and well I hope you can tell from my previous posts in this thread that I'm not.

But even the best team in the world can have an off day, and if that day is the day of the CL final then that's what's gonna happen. That's the one thing I don't like about the final (in CL and other competitions) is that it's only one leg. It'd be much easier to judge who the better team is over two legs, home and away.

Also, Inter won last year but was anyone calling them the best team in the world (besides maybe their own fans)? No, they were maybe calling Mourinho the best coach in the world, but that's it. And it became obvious this season after Mourinho left and was replaced by two coaches who aren't as tactically aware. Same players mostly, only difference was the coach. Yes tactics and coaching style help make a team great and successful but that should not be the only thing that does, the players should prove themselves able to be called the greatest of their own accord.

The difference is though, United aren't a surprise package. We are a huge club and consistantly press for both domestic and European success.

I think in a game of this magnitude, if the players can't raise their game, they have no place being ranked as the best. The best means they are better than everyone else, if they can't be the best in the final of the best Club competition in Europe (if not the world) then I'm sorry but they are not the best.

The best teams win, and those not as good lose. thats why these two great clubs are in the final.

You can easily claim subjectivity but there is also such a thing as intersubjectivity. Combine Barca's success with the fact that nearly every unbiased football professional (commentator, manager, columnist, you name it) agrees that Barca is the best current team, then I will feel comfortable claiming it to be true outside of my personal biased opinion. If you do not agree, who do you think is the best current team, using trophies, goals, players and majority opinion?

And again you say we should wait for the final. When someone claims Barca -should- win this, you say "anything can happen wait for the final'. When someone says Barca is the best, you say "not yet wait for the final". Maybe you should refrain yourself from posting in a pre-match discussion chat if you think these matters should be discussed post-match?

I feel as if I have to post a huge disclaimer after every word I type with you. Ok let me rephrase. Barca is the best current team in the world (and by that I mean using current statistics and performances, any current perception can be changed by future matches, for the full warning please refer to addendum 3.11 in your disclaimer)

I think (has I have said many times), the best club will be decided in ten days. Then and only then can they claim to be the best. Once all the talk as dried out there will be an actual game, and should Barca lose, people who then blindly claim them to be the best will have a lot of egg on their faces.

Oh and as for success, in the last five years United have been at least as succesful as Barca...in Europe and domestically.

You can easily claim subjectivity but there is also such a thing as intersubjectivity. Combine Barca's success with the fact that nearly every unbiased football professional (commentator, manager, columnist, you name it) agrees that Barca is the best current team, then I will feel comfortable claiming it to be true outside of my personal biased opinion. If you do not agree, who do you think is the best current team, using trophies, goals, players and majority opinion?

And again you say we should wait for the final. When someone claims Barca -should- win this, you say "anything can happen wait for the final'. When someone says Barca is the best, you say "not yet wait for the final". Maybe you should refrain yourself from posting in a pre-match discussion chat if you think these matters should be discussed post-match?

I feel as if I have to post a huge disclaimer after every word I type with you. Ok let me rephrase. Barca is the best current team in the world (and by that I mean using current statistics and performances, any current perception can be changed by future matches, for the full warning please refer to addendum 3.11 in your disclaimer)

You can play the smart guy all you want, but don't twist my words.

Reasonable prematch discussion consists of phrases such as 'I think...' and 'IMO....', not 'Barca ARE the best....'...etc etc.

That is how reasonable people discuss matters anyway, as to avoid sounding presumptuous, and arrogant.

 

[Aasim]

If anybody is in London the week leading upto the final, follow this link http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/final/championsfestival/index.html and it tells you a load of activities you can do.

 

[Pitbull2k4]

This is part of my arguement.

The EPL teams have really improved this season (I don't mean the big names, but the smaller teams), making it a very tough league to win. There have been very few teams getting well beaten this season, and thats why its impossible to comapare United's and Barcelona's domestic success (i,e goals, points etc). Both teams have done enough to quite comfortably win their respective leagues, and both have made it to the final.....I really think (and not just as a united fan) that it is going to be so much closer than many people here are claiming....not long now to find out.



The difference is though, United aren't a surprise package. We are a huge club and consistantly press for both domestic and European success.

I think in a game of this magnitude, if the players can't raise their game, they have no place being ranked as the best. The best means they are better than everyone else, if they can't be the best in the final of the best Club competition in Europe (if not the world) then I'm sorry but they are not the best.

The best teams win, and those not as good lose. thats why these two great clubs are in the final.



I think (has I have said many times), the best club will be decided in ten days. Then and only then can they claim to be the best. Once all the talk as dried out there will be an actual game, and should Barca lose, people who then blindly claim them to be the best will have a lot of egg on their faces.

Oh and as for success, in the last five years United have been at least as succesful as Barca...in Europe and domestically.



You can play the smart guy all you want, but don't twist my words.

Reasonable prematch discussion consists of phrases such as 'I think...' and 'IMO....', not 'Barca ARE the best....'...etc etc.

That is how reasonable people discuss matters anyway, as to avoid sounding presumptuous, and arrogant.

And for the last 5 posts (most many pages back) I explained I agree with you 100%, except it gets tiring putting those in front and after every sentence, they are implied. Also I will not 'have egg on my face', as losing is always a possibility especially against MU. However, it is my belief (which in turn is composed of bias, statistical- and intersubjective facts), that Barca should win this. Anything can happen in football, but that is a useless thing to say, because then we might as well stop discussing altogether. This is the --exact-- same thing I already said two times.

Also you keep saying I am arrogant because I believe Barca have a greater than average chance of winning, which is also simply not true. In the Netherlands for instance the general opinion agrees with the fact that Barca should win. Are they also arrogant? No, as they are unbiased writers / managers / commentators. Arrogant would be if I was a full blown Barca supporter who believes his team is invincible. I'm just a guy from the Netherlands cheering for Barca because I like their football. Just because I don't go out of my way to say "BUT I TOTALLY LIKE MU AS WELL" or "but anything can happen in football xDxD", doesn't mean I'm arrogant.

If Man U wins then you indeed deserve the title of best team in the world and I would congratulate you without any hard feelings.

 

[Unbiased United]

And for the last 5 posts (most many pages back) I explained I agree with you 100%, except it gets tiring putting those in front and after every sentence, they are implied. Also I will not 'have egg on my face', as losing is always a possibility especially against MU. However, it is my belief (which in turn is composed of bias, statistical- and intersubjective facts), that Barca should win this. Anything can happen in football, but that is a useless thing to say, because then we might as well stop discussing altogether. This is the --exact-- same thing I already said two times.

Also you keep saying I am arrogant because I believe Barca have a greater than average chance of winning, which is also simply not true. In the Netherlands for instance the general opinion agrees with the fact that Barca should win. Are they also arrogant? No, as they are unbiased writers / managers / commentators. Arrogant would be if I was a full blown Barca supporter who believes his team is invincible. I'm just a guy from the Netherlands cheering for Barca because I like their football. Just because I don't go out of my way to say "BUT I TOTALLY LIKE MU AS WELL" or "but anything can happen in football xDxD", doesn't mean I'm arrogant.

If Man U wins then you indeed deserve the title of best team in the world and I would congratulate you without any hard feelings.

You have read me wrong. There have been many instances on this forum when I have had good, friendly chat with Barca fans, even if they had differing opinions from my own. I joined this forum because, when reading through the thread as a guest I was impressed at the impartial views being expressed. However, just recently there has been a lot of arrogance shown on here.

My true opinions may not have been apparent in the last few pages or so on here, because I have had to take such a defensive stance against those writing off my team so easily ( and imo from things they say, without the knowledge to do so).

I have said many times I really like Barcelona, they are a great team, with a good philosophy and I think Pep is a fantastic guy and manager. I have expressed this MANY times on here. I have never claimed my team to be best, and have never offered anything other than a well thought out opinion. However the same can't be said for some, and comments such as 'Barca are the best and thats a fact' are totally outrageous, and EXTREMELY arrogant.

Its win, win for me here, because I have always said should Barca win I will agree they are the best, and I genuinely mean that. I have even argued Barca's cause and said I think they are 'arguably' the best. But you tell me why when my team has beaten everything this season which as been put in front of them, I wouldn't also have a right to say my team are 'arguably' the best too?

I love reasonable discussion, and I'm not deadset in my opinions, If someone says something constructive I can even change my opinion....But thats my problem here lately, there is so many one sided views being added, there is just no way for me to say 'yes but what about this....' and get a reasonable response.

 

[Pitbull2k4]

You have read me wrong. There have been many instances on this forum when I have had good, friendly chat with Barca fans, even if they had differing opinions from my own. I joined this forum because, when reading through the thread as a guest I was impressed at the impartial views being expressed. However, just recently there has been a lot of arrogance shown on here.

My true opinions may not have been apparent in the last few pages or so on here, because I have had to take such a defensive stance against those writing off my team so easily ( and imo from things they say, without the knowledge to do so).

I have said many times I really like Barcelona, they are a great team, with a good philosophy and I think Pep is a fantastic guy and manager. I have expressed this MANY times on here. I have never claimed my team to be best, and have never offered anything other than a well thought out opinion. However the same can't be said for some, and comments such as 'Barca are the best and thats a fact' are totally outrageous, and EXTREMELY arrogant.

Its win, win for me here, because I have always said should Barca win I will agree they are the best, and I genuinely mean that. I have even argued Barca's cause and said I think they are 'arguably' the best. But you tell me why when my team has beaten everything this season which as been put in front of them, I wouldn't also have a right to say my team are 'arguably' the best too?

I love reasonable discussion, and I'm not deadset in my opinions, If someone says something constructive I can even change my opinion....But thats my problem here lately, there is so many one sided views being added, there is just no way for me to say 'yes but what about this....' and get a reasonable response.

Then perhaps we have caricatured each other to unreasonable extremes, if that is the case I apologize. Allow to me also restate by view, bells and whistles intact:

Due to Barca's recent success (almost identical to MU's), incredible results and performances (crazy individual and team goals) over the year and great players I believe Barca should take this. Another way of rephrasing this is Barca are the favorites going in. Because Barca and MU are the best two teams (as they in the final), the favorite going in can be seen as the best team of the world, going in. It's reasonable logic, although I can see your objection. It was not my idea to start calling Barca the best team in the world, I joined this discussion by quoting you, arguing against someone bringing up that point. But if that post didn't reflect your views that well I believe you, as I have zero problems with the above post. I bet that if I read the entire thread I'd have understood it from the get go, but the last time I posted in the thread (before today) was page 16.

I think in the end we agree, but I come from a FCB viewpoint and you from MU's, which is OK. As someone from your country once said, much ado about nothing

 

[IrvDizzle]

talking about the actual game ... I feel like the longer it stays 0-0 the stronger United will get and more dangerous Chicharito/Berbatov/Rooney become. FCB need to stay organized at the back. Busquets needs to be the mature Sergio, not the immature Sergio to cover for Dani and Eric and possibly even Pique pushing forward. As always, an early goal for FCB would suit them tremendously.

question for U² ... do you think SAF will man-mark Messi, Xavi & Iniesta, just Leo or Xavi, or employ a zonal marking midfield where if any of those players have the ball in a certain area a specific defender closes ground to limit running/passing lanes? I expect Rooney to have a more defensive role in this match to help w/ pressing one of Messi, Xavi, & Iniesta.