2011 CL Final: FC Barcelona - Manchester United FC 3-1 - Champions!

[estranged]

I don't think the argument that EPL is more competitive than La Liga because we see more upsets in the EPL is a valid one. I mean you could say that upsets are due to competitiveness or you can say that the few teams on top are not performing the way they should every week, I mean just look at the past couple of weeks Arsenal lost to Stoke and Villa, does that mean EPL is more competitive? maybe, or it may mean that Arsenal just couldn't get their shit together enough. La Liga is competitive and the smaller teams can play more technical football than the ones in EPL, one way you can judge this by seeing how well mid table la liga teams have done in the Europa league/UEFA cup. Aside from Real and Barca la liga is very competitive

EDIT: no point tearing our hair out over this argument, we'll find out in about a weeks time.

 

[Unbiased United]

Then perhaps we have caricatured each other to unreasonable extremes, if that is the case I apologize. Allow to me also restate by view, bells and whistles intact:

Due to Barca's recent success (almost identical to MU's), incredible results and performances (crazy individual and team goals) over the year and great players I believe Barca should take this. Another way of rephrasing this is Barca are the favorites going in. Because Barca and MU are the best two teams (as they in the final), the favorite going in can be seen as the best team of the world, going in. It's reasonable logic, although I can see your objection. It was not my idea to start calling Barca the best team in the world, I joined this discussion by quoting you, arguing against someone bringing up that point. But if that post didn't reflect your views that well I believe you, as I have zero problems with the above post. I bet that if I read the entire thread I'd have understood it from the get go, but the last time I posted in the thread (before today) was page 16.

I think in the end we agree, but I come from a FCB viewpoint and you from MU's, which is OK. As someone from your country once said, much ado about nothing

I think the highlighted sentence is this certainly the case here. If your last post had been the first I had read, I would have nothing but agreement to offer as a reply (and to be honest it is very similar to the type of comments which made me join up here in the first place).

All things considered, it is fair to say Barca are favourites here, they have some fantastic players and will rightly be known as the best if they do win. I just don't think its by a clear of a margine as some here do. I think something I said (pages and pages ago) was 'United are a fantastic, and its going to take one hell of a team to beat them....unfortuantely for United, Barcelona happen to be one!! '.

All in all it should be a great game, and if Barcelona win there will be no excuses coming from my direction....In fact I'll be on here offering my congratulations to the better team.

 

[KluivertsBoots]

If United learned anything from the 2009 final, it is the importance of making the first 15-25 minutes count on the scoreboard. United started very well in that final, pressing from the front and generating chances, but had nothing to show for it. Once the match settled in and Barca established its patterns, there was a clear victor.

United can score as quickly as any team in the world (see Chicharito goal vs Chelsea), and they'll need to use that quality in order to beat Barcelona. They can't afford to play even a 0-0 game for very long. United need a goal inside of the first 20-25 minutes in my opinion.

Barcelona has allowed late goals in the second half of the season, so United will not be out of it if they do go down 1-0. Barcelona has not protected one goal leads very well at all. Even with that said, I still think United needs an early goal just for their own comfort.

If they fall behind early and Giggs/Fletcher-Carrick start doing more chasing than playing, United will find it very difficult to gain a foothold.

 

[Unbiased United]

talking about the actual game ... I feel like the longer it stays 0-0 the stronger United will get and more dangerous Chicharito/Berbatov/Rooney become. FCB need to stay organized at the back. Busquets needs to be the mature Sergio, not the immature Sergio to cover for Dani and Eric and possibly even Pique pushing forward. As always, an early goal for FCB would suit them tremendously.

question for U² ... do you think SAF will man-mark Messi, Xavi & Iniesta, just Leo or Xavi, or employ a zonal marking midfield where if any of those players have the ball in a certain area a specific defender closes ground to limit running/passing lanes? I expect Rooney to have a more defensive role in this match to help w/ pressing one of Messi, Xavi, & Iniesta.

I agree with Rooney having to drop back and help, at times I imagine it will be crucial he does.

Its really tough to say how SAF will adopt his tatics this time to try and surpress the Barca attack. Have a quick look at this article below. I think Park will be our key man to be honest (and I'm only speculating here because I could be totally wrong) but I think he may play almost a free role. I say this because if (and I say IF) anyone can stay with Messi its Park, but we also need him shooting down the wings too!

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_6938147,00.html

I have just written something and deleted it, then wrote something and deleted it again...because to be honest I can't make my mind up about not only how SAF will play it, but also how I'd like him too! lol

I think we have to Man mark Messi though. Perhaps the defence will have man marking duties, and the midfield (including wingers and even Rooney) will play more of a zonal marking system....very tough to call though I think.

I don't think the argument that EPL is more competitive than La Liga because we see more upsets in the EPL is a valid one. I mean you could say that upsets are due to competitiveness or you can say that the few teams on top are not performing the way they should every week, I mean just look at the past couple of weeks Arsenal lost to Stoke and Villa, does that mean EPL is more competitive? maybe, or it may mean that Arsenal just couldn't get their shit together enough. La Liga is competitive and the smaller teams can play more technical football than the ones in EPL, one way you can judge this by seeing how well mid table la liga teams have done in the Europa league/UEFA cup. Aside from Real and Barca la liga is very competitive

EDIT: no point tearing our hair out over this argument, we'll find out in about a weeks time.

You make a fair point to be honest. So I'm not saying I'm definately right, but there has been a lot of money pumped into even the samll PL teams this season, and they all seem to have decent squads, and are very hard to beat. That said you do have a point about the Europa league, etc.

 

[dalitis8]

I don't think the argument that EPL is more competitive than La Liga because we see more upsets in the EPL is a valid one. I mean you could say that upsets are due to competitiveness or you can say that the few teams on top are not performing the way they should every week, I mean just look at the past couple of weeks Arsenal lost to Stoke and Villa, does that mean EPL is more competitive? maybe, or it may mean that Arsenal just couldn't get their shit together enough. La Liga is competitive and the smaller teams can play more technical football than the ones in EPL, one way you can judge this by seeing how well mid table la liga teams have done in the Europa league/UEFA cup. Aside from Real and Barca la liga is very competitive

EDIT: no point tearing our hair out over this argument, we'll find out in about a weeks time.

Well, EPL, is on the whole somewhat stronger than La Liga (much more money for most English clubs, allows them to buy relatively expensive foreign players) it is also true, that this seson, most to English teams, have been overall quite under-par.

Chelsea were horrible for much of the season (they are after all, an ageing squad)

Arsenal had a few good games (especially the first leg against us at the Empirates) but threw lots of easy point away (Newcastle, Spurs, Blackpool) and by the end of the season, totally imploded

Man City are no more than a group of mercenaries, if the game goes their way, fine, otherwise they will just lose...

United started the season in mediocre fashion (even worse than that maybe) but grafually grew in stature, they were never awesome, but their overall greater reliability compared to the other major EPL sides, gave them the title.

I honestly believe, that any of the EPL top 4 could have easily been 3rd in La Liga (relatively close 3rd at that) but for me, Real Madrid are superior to any EPL side at the moment. More to the point, Madrid have better (and younger) players than Man Utd. This may sound like very good news for us, but football is never that simple. We must be top-notch in the final. Otherwise, it's going to turn into Russian roulette...

 

[KluivertsBoots]

Rooney will force Busquets to do one of two things. Either Busquets will push further up to try and force Rooney into a more defensive role, creating an extraordinarily high defensive line, or Busquets will drop in with Pique-Puyol and Barcelona will show more of the 3-4-3 shape.

There are dangers in both approaches from the Barcelona perspective. If Busquets elects to play deeper, this will give Rooney space and time to become an outlet and run at Barcelona from a deeper position. Forlan, Kanoute and Rossi have all destabilized the Barca defense in similar roles.

If Busquets pushes higher, Barcelona will then be playing an almost suicidally high offside trap. United's defenders, in addition to Carrick, are all capable of playing accurate balls from their own half. United can counter with devastasting speed from anywhere on the pitch. Last season, I saw Rooney sprint from his own box without the ball to get on the end of a counter attacking move that went end to end four touches off of an opponent corner.

It will be very interesting to watch the positioning of Busquets in this match, and it will probably be one of the most overlooked deciding factors in the match that none of the pundits will bother mentioning.

 

[Unbiased United]

Rooney will force Busquets to do one of two things. Either Busquets will push further up to try and force Rooney into a more defensive role, creating an extraordinarily high defensive line, or Busquets will drop in with Pique-Puyol and Barcelona will show more of the 3-4-3 shape.

There are dangers in both approaches from the Barcelona perspective. If Busquets elects to play deeper, this will give Rooney space and time to become an outlet and run at Barcelona from a deeper position. Forlan, Kanoute and Rossi have all destabilized the Barca defense in similar roles.

If Busquets pushes higher, Barcelona will then be playing an almost suicidally high offside trap. United's defenders, in addition to Carrick, are all capable of playing accurate balls from their own half. United can counter with devastasting speed from anywhere on the pitch. Last season, I saw Rooney sprint from his own box without the ball to get on the end of a counter attacking move that went end to end four touches off of an opponent corner.

It will be very interesting to watch the positioning of Busquets in this match, and it will probably be one of the most overlooked deciding factors in the match that none of the pundits will bother mentioning.

Perhaps you should be a pundit with insights like this!

Great assessment, I really like reading post's like this, which genuinely offer something new to think about. I'll be sure to look out for this during the game.

 

[KluivertsBoots]

Perhaps you should be a pundit with insights like this!

Great assessment, I really like reading post's like this, which genuinely offer something new to think about. I'll be sure to look out for this during the game.

If Abidal plays, Busquets likely will push forward to try and further impose the midfield area (and escape Rooney attentions) as Barcelona are already playing with three at the back when it is Abidal-Pique-Puyol. Dani is a right winger. Iniesta would shift nominally left in this instance to make a 3-4-1-2 shape (Villa-Pedro top with Messi in the hole).

If Adriano-Maxwell make the start, Busquets will drop to form the back three.

 

[PhilS]

Rooney will force Busquets to do one of two things. Either Busquets will push further up to try and force Rooney into a more defensive role, creating an extraordinarily high defensive line, or Busquets will drop in with Pique-Puyol and Barcelona will show more of the 3-4-3 shape.

There are dangers in both approaches from the Barcelona perspective. If Busquets elects to play deeper, this will give Rooney space and time to become an outlet and run at Barcelona from a deeper position. Forlan, Kanoute and Rossi have all destabilized the Barca defense in similar roles.

If Busquets pushes higher, Barcelona will then be playing an almost suicidally high offside trap. United's defenders, in addition to Carrick, are all capable of playing accurate balls from their own half. United can counter with devastasting speed from anywhere on the pitch. Last season, I saw Rooney sprint from his own box without the ball to get on the end of a counter attacking move that went end to end four touches off of an opponent corner.

It will be very interesting to watch the positioning of Busquets in this match, and it will probably be one of the most overlooked deciding factors in the match that none of the pundits will bother mentioning.

For most teams, the shape they adopt has a big effect on how they play. But for Barca, shape and positions have different meanings than they do for other teams. The Barca players are always changing up their positioning, they are highly flexible and adaptable, based on their reading of the current situation and the state of the match.

Speed is always a great weapon against Barca, but Barca has coped well with speed that is superior to Man U's. I'd say that both Arsenal and Villareal are speedier than Man U. Man U has no one as fast as Walcott or Nilmar. The Real Madrid offense can really move. Having Puyol and Abidal back helps, they both have excellent speed.

Barca, of course, well be pressuring the Man U defenders when they try to advance the ball. No other team pressures like Barca, this is going to hurt Man U a lot.

Masch will play, at least in the second half. He'll come in for Pique, Puyol, Abidal or Busquets if any of them are not up to par. Or, more likely, when Barca goes up one or two goals, he will come in for Villa or Pedro.

 

[KluivertsBoots]

Not all counter attacking is defensive and destructive, and United will try to put this on full display. They can put the ball in the net before the defense knows what happened. Remember Arsenal (Emirates) and Shahktar? Something tells me United will not be as wasteful, though they can certainly squander chances with the best (Chelsea match should have been about 5-2).

 

[gingerless]

And for the last 5 posts (most many pages back) I explained I agree with you 100%, except it gets tiring putting those in front and after every sentence, they are implied. Also I will not 'have egg on my face', as losing is always a possibility especially against MU. However, it is my belief (which in turn is composed of bias, statistical- and intersubjective facts), that Barca should win this. Anything can happen in football, but that is a useless thing to say, because then we might as well stop discussing altogether. This is the --exact-- same thing I already said two times.

Also you keep saying I am arrogant because I believe Barca have a greater than average chance of winning, which is also simply not true. In the Netherlands for instance the general opinion agrees with the fact that Barca should win. Are they also arrogant? No, as they are unbiased writers / managers / commentators. Arrogant would be if I was a full blown Barca supporter who believes his team is invincible. I'm just a guy from the Netherlands cheering for Barca because I like their football. Just because I don't go out of my way to say "BUT I TOTALLY LIKE MU AS WELL" or "but anything can happen in football xDxD", doesn't mean I'm arrogant.

If Man U wins then you indeed deserve the title of best team in the world and I would congratulate you without any hard feelings.

 

[KluivertsBoots]

Man U has no one as fast as Walcott or Nilmar.

Chicharito was rated the World Cup's fastest player in South Africa. Valencia, Park, Rooney, Anderson, Evra and the twins can all run with the best.

In terms of pure speed, I would only put Messi, Dani, and Adriano in the same league as United's fastest. I could be underselling Abidal, and I think Mascherano is faster than people realize.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Chicharito was rated the World Cup's fastest player in South Africa. Valencia, Park, Rooney, Anderson, Evra and the twins can all run with the best.

In terms of pure speed, I would only put Messi, Dani, and Adriano in the same league as United's fastest. I could be underselling Abidal, and I think Mascherano is faster than people realize.

Good post. Don't forget Pedrito, that kid is fast as shit.

 

[xaviniesta]

Good post. Don't forget Pedrito, that kid is fast as shit.

I have to disagree with you here about Dani Alves .His pace and top speed are totally overrated. His stamina is great though.

Our top 3 fastest are - Messi, Villa, Abidal.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/southafrica2010/statistics/players/distanceandspeed.html

the fastest Barcelona players in WC2010, belive it or not, were Puyol & Pique with 28.15 km/h, Hernandez's top speed were 32.15 km/h


btw
Iker's top speed - 22.53 km/h
Xavi's top speed - 22,70 km/h

 

[Raed]

Holy shit.. I don't think I can run past 23 km/h...