24 - Thomas Vermaelen

[BBZ8800]

And how much are you? All i see from you is you relentless confirmation bias against him, where only argument as to why he sucks is that he hasn't been used enough by our coaches and then an endless tl;dr cherry picked statements that helps your bias.
I don't think he's world class, not by now at least, because we can't even check that out, but he certainly isn't much worse than any of our other CB sans Pique, given what has been seen.

1. coaches don't pick him season after season
2. he didn't want to play in Tito's season, he was scared and had some confidence issues
3. he plays good against small La liga teams, he is a beast and a lion in those matches. He fights, he runs, he creates chances, he helps the attack, he plays like Puyol...
Against bigger teams, he is rarely picked to play, and when he eventually plays against bigger teams, he is usually exposed, bullied, he needs hands to stop the opponent's attackers, he rushes out and is often caught out of position, or opponents make what Januzaj made tonight for 3:1.
Again, against minor teams, he is a lion.

I don't know if he has confidence problems, or he is just not good enough against better attackers (or a combination of both).

That is what I have against him.
I don't trust him against bigger teams, he has let me down too many times.

And my general opinion is, that since we are Barca, we can't give 100s of chances to someone to see if he can eventually turn into something better.

He hasn't convinced me over years, and guys like Mathieu and Verm have proven some things on some levels, for years.
I don't care too much about either Mathieu, Verm or Bartra.
I just want our team to win trophies (especially Champions league).
And again, I just don't see Bartra in that team, except for being a 4th or the 5th choice at best, forever :/

 

[Galning]

The guy hasn't played 5 games in a row in years and people go nuts over a pre-season friendly. I still think his signing was unnecessary though.

 

[Gnidrologist]

And my general opinion is, that since we are Barca, we can't give 100s of chances to someone to see if he can eventually turn into something better.

We do that to Matheu, who is average at best and will NOT get better, while Bartra could.

 

[BBZ8800]

We do that to Matheu, who is average at best and will NOT get better, while Bartra could.

We can go in circles forever, but look at this:
1. Mathieu is a proven La liga defender, a very good proven defender
-- Bartra is a prospect and forum's favorite because he is La Masia kid and very passionate for Barca
2. Mathieu can play good TODAY even against top teams when we need him. He proved that even in Barca in numerous bigger matches last Season.
-- Bartra can't
-- he might, but he can't play well today

If you wanted to say that Mathieu is not too good and not too much better than Bartra, well we have a totally opposite views then.

People are asking for too many chances for too many players.
Give chances to Bartra, to Halil, to Samper, to Rafinha, to Munir, to Sandro etc.
We aren't Arsenal.

We can't have both:
1. too many chances/opportunities for younger players
2. and CL trophies

One out of those 2 will always have to suffer...

 

[Gnidrologist]

We can go in circles forever, but look at this:
1. Mathieu is a proven La liga defender, a very good proven defender

He has been average for us, which is all that counts.

2. Mathieu can play good TODAY even against top teams when we need him. He proved that even in Barca in numerous bigger matches last Season.
-- Bartra can't
-- he might, but he can't play well today

That is yet another 100% unfounded statement you love to use. Your culture of discussion is very weak despite the humongous effort you put in it by riffling through wikipedia and finding stat spreadsheets.
Bartra was MotM against PSG in a very important match, where most of the team was slacking. How many high profile matches besides that one he played for you to say that he is ''not good enough''. I shit my pants every time Matjee gets the ball under pressure. His only pro is his bulkiness.

We can't have both:
1. too many chances/opportunities for younger players
2. and CL trophies

One out of those 2 will always have to suffer...

Then sell ALL the youngsters like Real does unless another Messi comes along and that will be in couple of centuries if football and earth still exists. None of the Busquets, Pedro, even less Puyol or Inieste were impressive in their first years with first team. In fact, they sucked major donkey balls and were cause of frustration for me, whenever i saw them appear in major match. But that is Barca way and i came to accept that. You are propagating idea that Barca should turn into galacticos, unless we produce Xavi/Messi like prospects every fucking year.

 

[xXKonan]

Vermaelen: "Last year was terrible. It was a nasty injury, a difficult one, I am very happy that the feeling in the legs is perfect again."

Vermaelen: "I am very happy and very pleased to be back. I feel 100 per cent now - there's nothing better than to feel fit." [pa]

 

[BBZ8800]

Bartra was MotM against PSG in a very important match, where most of the team was slacking. How many high profile matches besides that one he played for you to say that he is ''not good enough''. I shit my pants every time Matjee gets the ball under pressure. His only pro is his bulkiness.

Psg's group stage match will be a legendary match which Bartra's fans will use until his retirement as an argument that he can play good against bigger teams, it seems.

I don't know, when I think of Bartra, I can still only remember 10s of matches against Levante when he is a lion, and horrible matches like:
1. against Bale in cup
2. against Ajax in Amsterdam, first 30 Minutes, last Season, when he was all over the place like on Januzaj's gol, around 5 times in those 30 minutes
3. mistake on one away game when that speedy attacker ran past him from the center of the field when Bartra was horribly positioned. Luckily, we won 1:2 in the end, if I remember correctly (I can't remember which match, it was against some weaker team)
4. Januzaj yesterday

Bartra doesn't get too many chances to play/get exposed against bigger teams.
If he played more, we would have 10s of blunders to speak about.

Last season, some fans were whining how Bartra whould play against Real Madrid and Psg when Masch was injured, so we had a question Mathieu or Bartra.
Luckily, Lucho picked Mathieu and won a treble.

Now it seems that fans will do the same scenario in Bartra vs Verm debate.

Anyway, I have found some posts from March 2015, when people were saying that Bartra has earned his spot and that he should play against Real and Psg, and not Mathieu (when Busi was injured and Masch needed to play as a defensive midfielder).

(These are stats from march, Mathieu later went on to play more big matches, which we all won, and we won a treble in the end):
-- this is from days when people doubted Mathieu, and wanted the forum's favorite, Bartra:

Look at the structure of Bartra's matches.
Guy ALWAYS plays only against Mickey mouse opponents, and as I have said, he is a lion/Puyol in those matches, often making assists and goals and people get carried away with those facts.

For example, a list of Bartra's matches this Season:
-- based on the current La liga table, this is the rankings of the teams, against whom Bartra played:
Home matches:
-- 15. Elche
-- 18. Levante
-- 19. Granada

Away:
-- 7. Malaga
-- 11. Rayo
-- 14. Eibar
-- 15. Elche
-- 16. Almeria
-- 17. Deportivo
-- 19. Granada

-- he did play in a few tougher matches like:
-- Champions league (Ajax, Ajax, Apoel, Apoel, Psg home)
-- and all cup matches, plus cup match against Atletico at home

Now, let's check matches where Mathieu played:
Home:
5. Villareal
6. Sevilla
7. Malaga
8. Bilbao
9. Espanyol
10. Celta
11. Rayo
14. Eibar
15. Elche
19. Granada

Away:
2. Real Madrid
3. Valencia
5. Villareal
8. Bilbao
11. Rayo
12. Sociedad
13. Getafe
18. Levante
19. Granada

Champions league:
-- Psg, Psg, Man. City
Cup:
-- Atletico away
-- Villareal home
-- Villareal away

So, let's do some maths and stats:
Bartra's matches against teams from Top10 of La Liga:
-- Home: -
-- Away: Malaga (7)
-- Ajax, Ajax, Psg (Champions league)
-- Atletico (4) cup
= 5 matches in total

Mathieu's matches against strong teams and Top10 La Liga teams:
-- Home: Villareal (5), Sevilla (6), Malaga (7), Bilbao (8), Espanyol (9), Celta (10)
-- Away: Real (2), Valencia (3), Villareal (5), Bilbao (8)
-- Champions League: Psg, Psg, Man. City
-- Cup: Atletico (4), Villareal (5), Villareal (5)
= total 16 matches

So:
1. Mathieu hasn't done any horrible mistakes, right?
2. bigger matches with Mathieu:
-- Villareal 1:0
-- Bilbao 2:0
-- Psg 2:3
-- Real 1:3
-- Celta 0:1
-- Sevilla 5:1
-- Valencia 1:0
-- Espanyol 5:1
-- Psg 3:1
-- Atletico 3:2
-- Villareal 3:2
-- Bilbao 5:2
-- Villareal 3:1
-- Malaga 0:1
-- Man. City 2:1
-- Villareal 3:1
= total, 12 wins, 4 defeats

** Back then, some fans used to say that all of our defeats came with Mathieu in our team.
Lol, of course when he played against Real away, Psg away and similar teams, while Bartra played against weakest teams in the universe.

Anyway, I wanted to say:
-- you say that you are afraid when Mathieu plays
-- but in the end, he played 20-25 bigger matches last Season, and made only a few horrible mistakes

-- Bartra played only a few bigger matches and made a similar amount of mistakes as Mathieu, if you get my point

 

[Chainsaw]

What's with all these talks about Bartra in the Vermaelen thread? Does criticizing Barta by any means justify Vermaelen's arrival? If the club wanted a significant upgrade over Bartra they should have tried better than Vermaelen and Mathieu. At least we could excuse the latter's arrival because of his versatility, the fact that he was in Spain for many years, has the height factor and knows the language, even though 20m for him was too much, but Vermaelen?! The ones who decided to go for him apparently hasn't been updated since like 5,6 years ago.

 

[BBZ8800]

What's with all these talks about Bartra in the Vermaelen thread? Does criticizing Barta by any means justify Vermaelen's arrival? If the club wanted a significant upgrade over Bartra they should have tried better than Vermaelen and Mathieu. At least we could excuse the latter's arrival because of his versatility, the fact that he was in Spain for many years, has the height factor and knows the language, even though 20m for him was too much, but Vermaelen?! The ones who decided to go for him apparently hasn't been updated since like 5,6 years ago.

I think that both Mathieu and Vermaelen are a huge enough upgrade over Bartra.

We (fans) probably share different views on Bartra.
Some of you probably think that he is good enough to play in the starting 11, and that we could win CL titles with him (he only needs chances to get in form).
Me, and some others probably, look at Bartra as on Pedro (even though I rate Pedro much higher).

So, you know that feeling when instead of MSN trio, we need to face Real or Bayern with Messi-Suarez-Pedro.
This is how I feel when Bartra needs to play, and when someone from Pique-Masch-Mathiue is unavailable.

Bartra, at least for me, is good enough for Levante, cup matches and similar, to be a squad/rotation player when needed.
So, both Mathieu and Verm are huge upgrades.

I would personally NEVER play Bartra against any bigger opponent, I don't trust him at all.
Verm and Mathieu, on the other hand, can play in the biggest matches.

Again, not to go in circles, this is more or less it.
I guess that some of you think that with more opportunities, Bartra can grow into a starting 11 player for the biggest matches.
I think that he can't grow into that player even with 100s of opportunities.

At the end of the day, it seems that all of our coaches share my view, because neither of them has too much faith in Bartra.
I guess that they know him better, through training sessions every day, through 11 vs 11 matches on trainings etc.
They see his skills/tackles and everything every day.

And yet, they always pick "someone else" in every big match to play as a Cb.
It says something, I guess.

I hope that this won't be viewed as "criticizing" Bartra.
We are just evaluating player's skills and potential...

 

[serghei]

I don't think any of Mathieu and Vermaelen are huge upgrades over Bartra. Pique and Mascherano are a class above the rest, and the other 3 are pretty close in value, with the exception that Vermaelen (still to be decided) and especially Mathieu can also play LB, which is always an advantage during the season.

 

[Ustari]

3. mistake on one away game when that speedy attacker ran past him from the center of the field when Bartra was horribly positioned. Luckily, we won 1:2 in the end, if I remember correctly (I can't remember which match, it was against some weaker team)

That was against Almeria

 

[Chainsaw]

I do not rate Bartra that highly but none of Vermaelen and Mathieu are huge upgrades over him. The Defensive midfielder Mascherano remaining as our starting CB beside Pique should prove that enough already.

 

[Kuchi]

He looks decent, pretty good ball control and good distribution/vision. Obviously, a lot of room to improve positioning and blocking, but can't really ask to much of the guy considering his history with us.

Hope he gets a clean season, with a good run of games and get some cohesion with the other defenders so that we can actually judge him with some objectiveness.

 

[Behrox]

I don't know why he thinks that he is Pirlo

 

[ATLBarcaFan]

Not a great showing by him on Saturday, I'm hoping that was due to rust. We need another quality CB, I'm not confident in any of them outside of Pique