7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[Raketa10]

I think that he is improving.
Since our midfield is beyond sterile against parked buses, I would like to see him more often as a CAM in the 2nd halves.

100% agree on that. He had a good first half but that dumb prick needs to use him more as a AM!

 

[unknowngenius10]

Cost us 2 points by not scoring that 1V1.

 

[Horatio]

Cost us 2 points by not scoring that 1V1.

Agree. Defense is not too be blamed at all.

 

[BarçaBarça]

Cost us 2 points by not scoring that 1V1.

Agree. Defense is not too be blamed at all.

Still, the context is that Coutinho needs to prove himself, and in the end Malcom played better and it probably would be a different result with Dembele instead of him.
He had one longshot, which is fine, he needs some confidence back. It is so ironic that these would be the games he would decide for Liverpool when needed and now he is the one (rightly) subbed off when we are looking to turn things around.

 

[khaled_a_d]

tbh I don't think he has been shit at all lately.
I mean obviously when you look at expectations/price tag he is way below the bar but now he looks like a decent role player who belongs to the team. Earlier he consistently looked like team worst player, at some point he didn't look like a decent footballer anymore.

 

[MTL_Barca]

tbh I don't think he has been shit at all lately.
I mean obviously when you look at expectations/price tag he is way below the bar but now he looks like a decent role player who belongs to the team. Earlier he consistently looked like team worst player, at some point he didn't look like a decent footballer anymore.

Yeah but the problem is we HAVE to look at the price tag. Not only his insanely high fee but also his salary. "A decent roleplayer" that we can play here or there in certain situations or just bench him in most games just isn't enough for that amount of money we invested in him.

He has to improve, not a bit but big time and needs to become an indisputable starter here or else it was a complete waste of money. And even with his slightly better form i have doubts that this will ever happen.

 

[MagIX]

I totally agree ! +1000 !
We are talking about a player who seems to be a phenomenon,we are talking abount a mature player not a young promise, he would have to be a BIG reinforcement for the team, a fantastic starter, instead he is a complete ridiculous disappointment.

 

[Arizona Scott]

Yeah but the problem is we HAVE to look at the price tag. Not only his insanely high fee but also his salary. "A decent roleplayer" that we can play here or there in certain situations or just bench him in most games just isn't enough for that amount of money we invested in him.

He has to improve, not a bit but big time and needs to become an indisputable starter here or else it was a complete waste of money. And even with his slightly better form i have doubts that this will ever happen.

Don't agree with the logic--either unambigious glowing success or total failure. That is not the spectrum of this move or any other.

The fee has already been spent. Some high fee players play beyond expectations (suarez), some medium fee players are great successes (arthur, lenglet, rakitic, alba, on and on), some high fee players play below but have still been contributing players (ozil, fabregas, bale--coutinho may well fit in this category) and yes some total wastes/epic failures (alexis sanchez to MU, arda turan).

There is a middle ground where coutinho could be a contributing player--but not full time starter. An overall dissappointment but not a total waste. As long as the players contributes to the team and good player relations--you certainly don't have to get rid of the player. But sure if there is a great offer (recoup the bulk of the fee and shed the wage), sure probably smart for all parties to move on. It does not have the look of a desperate situation "complete waste".

 

[MTL_Barca]

Don't agree with the logic--either unambigious glowing success or total failure. That is not the spectrum of this move or any other.

The fee has already been spent. Some high fee players play beyond expectations (suarez), some medium fee players are great successes (arthur, lenglet, rakitic, alba, on and on), some high fee players play below but have still been contributing players (ozil, fabregas, bale--coutinho may well fit in this category) and yes some total wastes/epic failures (alexis sanchez to MU, arda turan).

There is a middle ground where coutinho could be a contributing player--but not full time starter. An overall dissappointment but not a total waste. As long as the players contributes to the team and good player relations--you certainly don't have to get rid of the player. But sure if there is a great offer (recoup the bulk of the fee and shed the wage), sure probably smart for all parties to move on. It does not have the look of a desperate situation "complete waste".

If he doesn't make it here most of the (not recovered) money was wasted, you simply don't pay up to 160M for a player who may or may not be useful in a ceratin situation. And as mentioned also think about his high salary.

Coutinho is the 3rd most expensive football player ever, just let that sink in for a moment when thinking about his current role on the team. Of course this whole transfer was a complete failure if he keeps spending so much time on the bench or playing bad.

What you're right with of course is that the money is already spent. Now we have to make the best out of it somehow and that means we either use him or we sell him. But unless he becomes starter quality soon there is just no way this could ever be seen as a success because keeping a 160M player with the 3rd highest salary in the squad as an option for rotations isn't justifiable in any way. Now we might be forced to try it because there won't be a good opportunity but tbh i lost hope that it'll really work. Not that he isn't a quality player but more like that i don't believe anybody would say "yeah i'm super happy we bought him for 160M" some months into the new season. I just can't see that happening with the way we build the squad atm.

He isn't a bad player, but for what he offered this far we payed like 100 mil too much and his salary is way too high. He was supposed to immediately strengthen our team and replace Iniesta. "Proven world class" in his prime age wise but he is far away from the expectations.

Also it's not like there are only 2 options. Coutinho could for example play better and still not play like a 160M signing. In that case i would say yeah ok we overpaid a bit, not easy getting a Liverpool starter and we had all the Neymar money so who cares. But imo this season was just too disappointing to phrase it like that.

Only major factor to change the situation would be getting a new coach next season. Not necessarily because i think Valverde is responsible for Coutinhos bad showings but because it could really shake up the squad, with Valverde and his established system, established player roles etc i see no way Coutinhos situation can drastically change.

So if it continues like this and there is a decent offer i would sell him and just admit the transfer wasn't good.

 

[Arizona Scott]

MTL_Barca, OK we can get away from the semantics, total waste, big disappointment, somewhat disappointing, etc. I don't think it will be as bad as Alexis Sanchez to MU or Arda Turan to Barca (as IMO it was all money with absolutely zero product and a locker room problem), but I leave that.

Not that he isn't a quality player but more like that i don't believe anybody would say "yeah i'm super happy we bought him for 160M" some months into the new season. I just can't see that happening with the way we build the squad atm.

He isn't a bad player, but for what he offered this far we payed like 100 mil too much and his salary is way too high. He was supposed to immediately strengthen our team and replace Iniesta. "Proven world class" in his prime age wise but he is far away from the expectations.

Also it's not like there are only 2 options. Coutinho could for example play better and still not play like a 160M signing. In that case i would say yeah ok we overpaid a bit, not easy getting a Liverpool starter and we had all the Neymar money so who cares. But imo this season was just too disappointing to phrase it like that.

Only major factor to change the situation would be getting a new coach next season. Not necessarily because i think Valverde is responsible for Coutinhos bad showings but because it could really shake up the squad, with Valverde and his established system, established player roles etc i see no way Coutinhos situation can drastically change.

So if it continues like this and there is a decent offer i would sell him and just admit the transfer wasn't good.

All fair points and I mostly agree with some minor tweaks.

Coutinho is an attacking midfielder more than a winger. There is a chance he and Valverde or another manager comes to realize if he wants to be a regular starter with a team with Messi he is going to have to play more like a midfielder and grow in some aspects of his game. He was frequently in an advanced central midfield position at Liverpool (and Klopp did not want him to go and they are still seeking a replacement, almost sprung for Fekir this summer) and we have seen a little bit of it this year, though I think clearly Valverde this year will at most sprinkle it in. There is a summer offseason to work on this, and now maybe it is pretty clear Dembele looks like a fixture PC can focus on training into another role.

The other part is I don't think over Coutinho's 15 months at Barca he has been nearly as bad as you do. I think he was only truly bad some of the 1st part 18-19 through maybe January. He was outstanding in La Liga season (2nd best player once he joined in league) and been OK Feb and on--maybe not great numbers but linking up well with Suarez and Messi. I think one of the challenges with him is you see so much difference with Dembele in the team vs not, and we usually contrast that with Coutinho v Dembele. In truth Dembele makes all our other alternatives look slow and non-explosive. And could having a speedier CF like Jovic as an alternative to Suarez here and there make a line Coutinho works well in? Perhaps. Part of the issue is the combined workrate/pace of Suarez, Messi & Coutinho doesn't cut it.

So I am not as pessimistic about the transfer as you are. Yeah we overpayed, but we got fantastic deals on Arthur and Lenglet, and looking good for Dembele and Malcom. It comes with the territory of some buys being great, some good, average, some of poor value, and yes sometimes terrible. I am totally fine if we sell for 100+ and take some loss on this move when you consider all the moves the last few years. It is a move like Arda (when he said he wanted to move from AtM to Barca so he doesn't have to work as much) that I just don't understand and shake my head. (or going back to Vermaelen, Alex Song, etc)

 

[Givenchy]

its not OUR money wasted personally but 160mil price tags are black and white, success or fail, simple as that. you can't spend that amount to have a solid player to bring off the bench, hes supposed to change games. hes also not a kid, hes supposed to be in his prime and while i've seen flashes of magic, his mentality is very poor

with a different manager i think it could of worked out different but it shows how naive our board can be if they really planned on making him Iniesta's heir

our best hope is Madrid buy Pogba, United blow their load on Coutinho and we invest that money into a ST or pure winger

part of me is sad this one didn't work out as i was hyped af when we signed him.. theres still a small chance he gets it together before the summer chop so lets hope

 

[Arizona Scott]

...it shows how naive our board can be...

It is not an exact science. In 2 years time we have brought in Arthur, Malcom, Lenglet, Vidal, Coutinho, Dembele, Paulinho, Semedo, Deulofeu & Mina. Except for Coutinho all look their price as either long term fixtures or players we moved on for a profit.

In short our board has made darn good moves and IMO has not looked naive at all. Perhaps the smartest overall investments over a stretch in quite some time. I'd say before 2018 we were having far more misses vs successes. Some good buys in those years--Alba, Neymar, Suarez, Rakitic, Umtiti, but a lot more stinkers--Turan, Douglas, Gomes, Paco, Aleix, Mathieu, Vermaelen, Krkic, Song.

And in terms of fees--you have to compare to the prevailing rate, 160 mil for Coutinho happened after we receieved 240 mil for Neymar. Prices have to be considered relative to the yearly market. I mean who has thinking in 2012 it was a good idea to acquire (and pay 21 mil in 2012 prices, worth what 63 mil in todays market) and pay a high wage for Alex Song?

 

[khaled_a_d]

Yeah but the problem is we HAVE to look at the price tag. Not only his insanely high fee but also his salary.

This is something to look for and judge during the off-season when we decide his future. But right now he is a player who is actually helping the team and earning the minutes he gets.
Earll on, he looked like a guy who didn't deserve this minutes, he was just given as team/coach was supporting him to get his form back.
At the final 2 months of the season, that is important thing for the team, to be playing based on merits, except for some Liga games here and there when we are resting a player or two (Like Umtiti against Villarreal)

 

[Arizona Scott]

This is something to look for and judge during the off-season when we decide his future. But right now he is a player who is actually helping the team and earning the minutes he gets.
Earll on, he looked like a guy who didn't deserve this minutes, he was just given as team/coach was supporting him to get his form back.
At the final 2 months of the season, that is important thing for the team, to be playing based on merits, except for some Liga games here and there when we are resting a player or two (Like Umtiti against Villarreal)

Totally agree, season has 2 months left and all aspirations and he has an opp to contribute to a legendary season. After that futures can be decided and the least distraction now is best. Right now is club message should be right now everyone is a key part of barca and nothing is set in stone.
But just to add from feb-may last year he was our 2nd best player, unfortunately he was cup tied so we saw it in la liga and cdr only. Then he had a good world cup. He was mostly really bad this fall--but it wasnt like he hadnt played world class play at barca and other places.

 

[Cule4life]

Totally agree, season has 2 months left and all aspirations and he has an opp to contribute to a legendary season. After that futures can be decided and the least distraction now is best. Right now is club message should be right now everyone is a key part of barca and nothing is set in stone.
But just to add from feb-may last year he was our 2nd best player, unfortunately he was cup tied so we saw it in la liga and cdr only. Then he had a good world cup. He was mostly really bad this fall--but it wasnt like he hadnt played world class play at barca and other places.

We had Iniesta last season. Now the pressure is on Cou to take over his mantle and he's showing he can't handle it. How long should we give him before we give up on him and his market value doesn't erode to the point of us taking a huge L? We dwindled too much before in selling players who showed signs that they weren't upto the task.

Plus if we need to get De Ligt/Jovic we need to raise the money as well. It's upto Cou to redeem himself and show he belongs here. He has ample time till the end of the season to show it. Else he should be sold.